Are you happy with the Lich changes?

[DreisterDino]

Hey there,

so in the last Update DE did some small changes to random weapon generation system with Liches/Sisters, the details are in the Spoiler below:

Spoiler

ADVERSARY WEAPON GENERATION - QUALITY OF LIFE CHANGE

As the pool of Adversary weapons grows and your checklist fills out, the natural chance of finding a Progenitor (Larvling or Candidate) with the exact weapon you desire shrinks. This Adversary Weapon Generation Quality of Life change is meant to reduce randomness over time of what weapon a Progenitor Candidate (Sister) or Larvling (Kuva Lich) can spawn with.

 

How it works:

By skipping a Progenitor (choosing not to Mercy them) the spawned weapon is then put into a ‘reject’ pile for that round of Adversary generation, meaning that it will not appear again and ultimately reducing the weapon pool each time you ‘reject’.

The list of rejected weapons is cleared once you accept an Adversary and the process would start again from a clean slate for both Sister or Kuva Lich the next time you go looking for an Adversary. This list clearing applies to both Sister and Kuva Lich, meaning once the chosen Adversary is Converted or Vanquished, the list clears for both factions.

Test Cluster change: Kuva Lich/Sister of Parvos weapon reject list will now reset if you reject every possible weapon.

The question is, are you happy with this change and do you think it is enough of an improvement?

My personal opinion is the following:

 

Pro:

On the one hand, i am glad that they changed at least something, it was really necessary. I was one of the players who simply refused to engage with this system at all lately, and with this adjustment this might change just a little, and maybe i will get a few more weapons now with the slightly reduced RNG. But i am also sure that this change is not enough to make me put a lot of time into it, and it wont go beyond "get each weapon once". Still, i guess for players like me, who just randomly stumble across a Progenitor every now and then it is a slight improvement and will get me closer to some weapons i dont have yet. But since the system is still "run the most boring and meaningless mission and abort until you finally have the weapon you want", i will still ignore it for the most part i guess.

 

Con:

I feel like if you really want to engage with the system, this change is marginal at best. You will still run and abort a lot of missions until you get the weapon you want. While there is a slight improvement aswell, meaning you can be sure that after a certain amount of (random, meaningless, boring, tedious) runs you will get the weapon you want for sure, the foundation is still the same. I am sure there will be new complaints and new problems we havent had before. Note: I will not be a person who will make complaints like listed in the following examples, but i wouldnt be surprised if we see complaints like that in the future, and i think to a certain degree they might even be justified. Some problems which came to mind:

• for whatever reason, a player misses that there is a downed Progenitor, which will remove the weapon the player was going for until he accepts another weapon or rejects all the other weapons. As a result, you will have to go through the process of "run random mission, abort" again to get it back in the cycle again
• a player runs across a Progenitor with the weapon he was looking for, but doesnt want to have an active Lich/Sister at the time for whatever reason. But the player himself by accident or another person from the Squad might kill the Progenitor, removing the weapon from the pool.
• a player might reject a certain weapon on purpose, but simply changes his mind shortly. There could be different reasons for that, like confusing two weapons. You could think that you already owned the weapon and then notice that you dont have it.
• is there even a way to see what weapons are on the list of rejected weapons? If not, this might cause some confusion or frustation aswell

 

The thing with all these examples is: You will have to run the random progenitor mission as long as the pool gets refreshed again. And this part is arguably the most boring and tedious part of the Lich-system. You might argue that these problems are all "player made" or "could be prevented with planning", and i will not disagree with that per se. Like i said, i wont be a person who will make complaints like that aswell. But i think you have to acknowledge that players can make errors all the time and that a player maybe shouldnt plan everything all the time, playing with a spreadsheet.

 

TLDR: I can see slight improvements in this change, but the basic problem many players have with this system (run and abort a random mission x-times) remains basically the same. And while this can be an improvement for sure in certain scenarios, i can see new problems comming up which can be just as annoying and will result in the exact same thing which should have been reduced with this Update. This happens when you try to "fix" a system with the addition of a new system on top of it instead of just adressing the real issue.

 

Personal wish:

I've said it many times, the best system to me would be that each weapon is simply located on a certain Node of the Starchart.

Just pick the weapon you want and go for it. No hassle with boring missions you just run and abort until you get lucky, just focus on the actual lich Content.

 

"but it would be too easy and too fast that way, there needs to be some challenge"

Yes, it would remove the stupid part of the system from the game. That part would be faster, just select and go. But why is that a problem? DE shortened the actual process of the Lich hunt by 1 or 2 hours, and this stupid RNG system now needs to make up for that? Why not just increase the time it takes to farm murmurs again by lets say half an hour, that will make up for the removal of RNG-weapon generation. Also, they could make the final Railjack mission in which you kill your Lich/Sister longer or more complex. You know, determine the length and difficulty of getting a certain weapon with the actual content that was designed for it, not with a tedious and random entrance barrier to that system.

 

That is what i would want from the system, i would finally and gladly engage with the system a lot more.

But what about you? Do you actually prefer to run a random mission for 20 minutes instead of farming murmurs for additional 20 minutes for example?

Or is the process of RNG-generation even fun or interesting for you in this case?

 

[TeaHands]

11 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

You will still run and abort a lot of missions

Pretty sure you have to finish the mission for this to work.

[DreisterDino]

Gerade eben schrieb TomCruisesSon:

Pretty sure you have to finish the mission for this to work.

Might be true, honestly i have no idea about that since i think this hasnt been mentioned?

Not sure if thats a good or a bad thing though ^^ I mean, if its true, you could at least fix some of the potential errors i mentioned by just aborting the mission.

[(PSN)Sentiel]

It still takes a long time to get the desired weapon.

It's an improvement but I'd like something more effective.

[0_The_F00l]

Happy ? 

I don't know , i am definitely less annoyed at the very least.

[TARINunit9]

20 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

 or another person from the Squad might kill the Progenitor, removing the weapon from the pool.

That would only affect their pool, not yours

[TeaHands]

4 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

Might be true, honestly i have no idea about that since i think this hasnt been mentioned?

Not sure if thats a good or a bad thing though ^^ I mean, if its true, you could at least fix some of the potential errors i mentioned by just aborting the mission.

I was in the test cluster for this update and honestly forgot to fully test this is out. (New War replay took up a lot of my time) But a lot of comments in the thread for Liches/Sisters seemed to have come to the conclusion that you had to finish the mission to fully lock out a weapon. 

Take note though, I am not a reliable source with a bad memory.

But as to your post, I welcome this change since there's still some kuva/tenet weapons I want to get and farm for valence. This will make that process a lil bit smoother.

[taiiat]

i didn't mind it as it was, but they've safeguarded their changes from having any negative impacts, which i'm glad about. so at worst it's the same as it already was.

[Merrcenary]

idc. anyone, who isn't lazy casual, already farmed all weapons with 60% and with desired element

[TARINunit9]

2 minutes ago, Merrcenary said:

anyone, who isn't lazy casual, 

So, 90% of the players then

[Merrcenary]

1 минуту назад, TARINunit9 сказал:

So, 90% of the players then

if you mean that 90% are casuals then you are pretty close to the truth

[Josh486]

16 minutes ago, Merrcenary said:

idc. anyone, who isn't lazy casual, already farmed all weapons with 60% and with desired element

Cringe and no life pilled

[MorradiX]

Once I eventually kill one of these things I'll let you know.....someday   ;)

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

Great change, too bad i finished all my weapons getting to 60% last month 

[Kaichi16]

it's a nice change, but not enough. and i feel like they're not improving it any time soon... 

once they add more weapons, we'll be complaining about it all over again.

[Kaotyke]

No. It still means that I have to play the game to get them.

Was this based or just salty?

[kyori]

This change will work for now, but it will be messed up again after some updates just like the you-won't-get-same-sortie-reward-twice-in-a-row and others like it.

[vanaukas]

1 hour ago, DreisterDino said:

Might be true, honestly i have no idea about that since i think this hasnt been mentioned?

Not sure if thats a good or a bad thing though ^^ I mean, if its true, you could at least fix some of the potential errors i mentioned by just aborting the mission.

Eh yes

Cheers

[ReddyDisco]

1 hour ago, DreisterDino said:

The question is, are you happy with this change and do you think it is enough of an improvement?

Wish these changes came earlier, now i have every lich/sister weapon and no need to do that grind again. 

[Xylena_Lazarow]

Does the downed candidate have to actually die/expire before you finish the mission?

[Numerounius]

For me:

Pros: Changes one part of the lich hunt to be more forgiving instead of being in the 1% of attempting to hit the weapon you want multiple times to get it up to 60%. It is an okay change with marginal downsides. 

It only impacts a small amount of time that you would be spending on the overall lich hunt.

Cons: No way of checking progress, regular missions can easily ruin this reject list pretty easily. PUBs can make it a problem especially for parvos weapons as other squad-members might want to try getting Protea warframe parts rather than a lich by using the void.

A way of viewing this reject list and being able to reset I think would make it perfect honestly. If not, you would have to run the whole cycle at least once which isn't the end of the world.

 

CON: There are other changes to the lich hunt that needs to be addressed, obtaining the requiems was the biggest one that I saw and agreed with.

[DreisterDino]

@kyoriand @vanaukas thank you for linking the reply, i crossed out the "and abort" parts in my post.

A cynic could say that the time you save with the addition directly goes into completing the mission now though 😄

vor 34 Minuten schrieb Kaotyke:

No. It still means that I have to play the game to get them.

Was this based or just salty?

I have no idea if this is only a random joke or if you want to say something like "people want everything for free without any effort" like some do.

 

If thats the case though i just want to say that in the last part of my post i hope i made it clear that i dont want everything without any effort, i just think that the effort is in the wrong place. I mean, you can spend 30 minutes to even get the Lich you want, but actually killing your lich takes like what, 5 minutes maximum? So like i mentioned, i would prefer it if the actual Railjack mission thats about killing our Lich or the murmur process is where we have to put in the effort, not the RNG part before all of that.

[Fallen77]

It's fine.

I think people see the worst case scenario, counting how many runs they need to make to clear ALL the weapons they don't want.

But the thing is, it was already possible to get lucky before and get your 1/20 chance on the first few runs, and now this makes it extremely more likely to luck out at every new run.

And for things like "but what if the player can't get to the candidate in time and loses the weapon he wanted ?"... well yaknow, if you have so little competence and/or are paying so little attention to the game you're playing, it's just your fault, the game should not be built around such an abyssal level of incompetence.

"But what if the player doesn't want a lich right now for some reason ?"... what reason ? If someone is such a crybaby about the 5 rubedo that the lich is gonna steal temporarely, they don't deserve to engage with the system in the first place.

And finally, no it's surely not gonna be made any easier than that. Rarity and difficulty to obtain ensure that the trade prices stay high, so I don't see DE changing that any time soon.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

I think the only "Con" with this change is its made a few players accidentally highlight how bad they are at Math in a thread.

The change is great, try to be happy that hunting weapons has become exponentially easier. There are no downsides to it at all.

[(PSN)IdoThea]

2 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

There could be different reasons for that, like confusing two weapons. You could think that you already owned the weapon and then notice that you dont have it.

This is why I'm always generating liches and sisters on solo. I can simply pause and search that weapon and decided if I want it.