Expect swarms of "PLZ NERF X DUVIRI ENEMY/BOSS" when the update releases

[-Moctezuma-]

I've seen so many posts from people (mostly new but suprisingly long time players aswell) complaining that The New War is too hard, wanting to opt out of the quest because the Drifter combat against regular enemies/archons is too hard for them.

I am 100% sure they are a minority in the playerbase, but they are a loud one and will no doubt DEMAND for Duviri enemies to be nerfed and toned down, aswell as the difficulty of the overall Duviri world, an example of this is when some players got DE to nerf and tone down the level/difficulty of the Zariman quest from 60 to 20 or something like that, even tho most people seemed fine with it.

I am hopeful this isn't the case and DE is wise enough to understand most of these complains come from people who aren't used to critical thinking when dealing against enemies or bosses, and I don't blame them because the regular Warframe gameplay doesn't require the player to think much about: "I am low in HP, maybe I should take cover!" or "I should kill the enemies healing the heavy unit before trying to kill the heavy!", common sense like this is present in most games but is ALMOST non existant in Warframe due to how brainlessly powerful we are.

however I don't think Duviri should be a hardcore sweaty Dark souls 2.0 either, it could be something in between that isn't the typical brainless Warframe gameplay.

 

 

[Pakaku]

16 minutes ago, -Moctezuma- said:

I am 100% sure they are a minority in the playerbase, but they are a loud one and will no doubt DEMAND for Duviri enemies to be nerfed and toned down, aswell as the difficulty of the overall Duviri world, an example of this is when some players got DE to nerf and tone down the level/difficulty of the Zariman quest from 60 to 20 or something like that, even tho most people seemed fine with it.

Demands don't have to be listened to, DE didn't budge on the "no quitting" policy with New War, and I may be wrong but I don't remember any particularly unreasonable nerfs to the overall quest either.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

Seeing Rebecca get bodied by one of the bosses has given me hope that the gameplay will be a decent enough level of challenge. Thankfully, The New War serves as a gate for that challenging content, and there's no way for a new player to be thrust into such a challenge before they get familiar with the gameplay of Warframe.

I'm pessimistic about the alternate start, and it's probably going to multiply the type of complaints you're expecting. I feel fine laughing at the people who have been around for a while and are just bad at video games, but it feels worse when it's just someone who hasn't been taught how to play. here's hoping DE does the alternate start well.

[Circle_of_Psi]

12 minutes ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

I'm pessimistic about the alternate start

Yeah, I feel the same way, strangely I think this is a really weird move, not in the sense, it shouldn't be fine for a new player to do, but you'll have all this Drifter Stuff, but then suddenly you gain a Warframe and you are now some random child from a space crib?

Also, yes I am aware that Drifter does have mild access to a Warframe for a short time, but won't it be a little also misleading, a new player will come and play the Drifter stuff, enjoy that way much that enjoy (Dark Souls/Skyrim, etc) and only want to play that, but then suddenly are dragged out of that and be like "Hey btw, you can also use OP Warframes"

[0_The_F00l]

There will be some such requests i am sure ,

But i feel the new war itself has created sufficient gating and those that can't get over the challenge won't even get to the point.

Then again , there is the whole "alternate start" option , so we may see even more complaints , which i hope will be considered purely on the merit of the argument and not on the volume of the screams.

[YUNoJump]

I'm sure the Duviri Quest will be kept relatively easy, the last thing DE wants is newcomers quitting the game because the intro quest was too hard for them. The actual Duviri main content, i.e. the "roguelike" aspect, will probably have to be at least somewhat challenging, otherwise the roguelike elements wouldn't matter. Roguelikes have to be hard, that's just how it is. Not to say that it's impossible for the game to be "too hard"; if the enemies are difficult enough that it's not a challenging fight anymore then I'd expect nerfs.

People complain about literally everything though, and life goes on. There's not really much point guessing how mad people will be, just enjoy yourself.

[(PSN)Pablogamer585]

Given Duviri is the second way to start Warframe, I don't think it'll be "too difficult" for starters, let alone experienced players.

It will be different from the current flow, that's for sure, and maybe because it is quite the change of pace some people will find it "difficult".
Not sure about this, complains, I mean, time, will tell, but if they are used to play more games than 1, I don't think anyone is going to have issues adapting.

Then again, Steel Path Paradox can, and should be, the new hardcore experience for those of us looking for some challenge & interesting rewards in the process.
Not necessarily a souls, but lets see if the things get spiced up in an interesting manner.

[Vryheid]

Any time there's content where you can't bring in your broken endgame Warframe builds as a crutch there's always a subset of players who will get salty about it. You saw it with the Kahl missions and you're absolutely going to see it again with Duviri. The roguelike nature of Duviri means that these players are probably going to have to learn the mechanics of the enemies instead of just spamming invisibility skills or using some one-shot instant-death shotgun to skip the fights entirely. I'm sure there will be some gameplay content where players who just want to casually roll over every single obstacle without any effort can enjoy themselves, but I also want more challenging content that offers some opportunities for skill and player expression. 

[ant99999]

3 minutes ago, Vryheid said:

these players are probably going to have to learn

And that is the problem.

Some players just aren't gonna put up with any of that "learning" of yours.

[Terroriced]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb -Moctezuma-:

I've seen so many posts from people (mostly new but suprisingly long time players aswell) complaining that The New War is too hard, wanting to opt out of the quest because the Drifter combat against regular enemies/archons is too hard for them.

For me personally the Archon fights were a bit too easy, but I certainly enjoyed the spectacle of effects. However, I totally understand those who could not beat the missions and were asking for help. DE could lower difficulty per elapsed time or per failed attempt. Thereby The New War would not kill paying customers as it currently does.

It makes no sense to deny bad players, of which there are a lot, to play the game. It makes no sense financially and possible solutions are no act of wizardry that need to yet be invented. There is no we or them dilemma where the game cant be tailored to be enjoyed by different kinds of people. Appealing to a specific target audience is always a choice.

A choice of marketing for example.

 

vor 3 Stunden schrieb -Moctezuma-:

I am 100% sure they are a minority in the playerbase, but they are a loud one and will no doubt DEMAND for Duviri enemies to be nerfed and toned down, aswell as the difficulty of the overall Duviri world

You would be surprised to find out how many players ignore any text that appears anywhere on screen and any audio transmissions and hints.

You would be surprised to find out how many players cant figure out basic tasks, because they dont know which buttons to press, which mechanics exist or simply what they are supposed to do. This is not a minority, it is unfortunately true for the majority of Warframe players. Most of them dont make it that far to reach The New War.

Most Warframe players are low MR.

 

vor 2 Stunden schrieb (XBOX)Ampathetiic:

I'm pessimistic about the alternate start

I can not imagine DE messing up the new starting option for Warframe. Im very much expecting this to be the best change to the game in a very long time.

 

The current tutorial unfortunately fails at a very large amount of points which is mostly due to years of additions that were introduced without keeping an eye on the bigger picture.

Most new players dont know the bullet jump exists. They dont know where the health bar is. They forget that Warframes have abilities. They dont understand that you lose all rewards when you abort an open world mission. They cant find the way back to Cetus. They dont know blueprints exist in the shop, assume the game is pay to win and uninstall.

I know this sounds like a joke, it cant be that bad, right, but it is.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

Seeing Rebecca get bodied

to be fair, I doubt it takes much for her to get bodied: I remember when they first showed their plans for Eximus weak points, she was struggling hard to hit them.. with a Tigris... a shotgun with among the highest multishot in the game (was at the time at least) and honestly, it was painful to watch... in the end they scrapped that idea (thank god) and we didn't get any changes until MUCH later with Angels of the Zariman, when they added Overguard. as a community manager - and now creative director - she's great, don't get me wrong... but I can think of a thousand other people who would be better for actually demonstrating new gameplay mechanics.

anyway, onto the main topic:

3 hours ago, -Moctezuma- said:

but they are a loud one and will no doubt DEMAND for Duviri enemies to be nerfed and toned down, aswell as the difficulty of the overall Duviri world, an example of this is when some players got DE to nerf and tone down the level/difficulty of the Zariman quest from 60 to 20 or something like that, even tho most people seemed fine with it.

perhaps, but DE have also started to fight back, by which I mean not change anything: people still complain to this day about the locked-in nature of New War, but DE has never gone back on it. from what I've seen though the only confirmed* boss is the Orowyrm, which, depending on it's abilities, might be a problem for drifter to fight.. but it looks like Drifter gets melee mechanics too, so it could just be a case of "cut the boss in it's weak points and don't get hit" for like the first phase. if we have void dashing it'd be even easier, if not.. then it might start feeling like New War drifter all over again.

*there will likely be more bosses too that haven't been shown yet. ultimately we won't know until people start fighting the bosses whether or not DE makes a mistake, or whether it really is just a case of "git gud or git rekt". 

 

[(PSN)TONI__RIBEIRO]

It will be hard, it will be buggy, this is the way.

[Terroriced]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb YUNoJump:

I'm sure the Duviri Quest will be kept relatively easy, the last thing DE wants is newcomers quitting the game because the intro quest was too hard for them

Of course DE want newcomers to not quit the game due to difficulty.

 

I still remember when DE paid a well known COD streamer to start playing Warframe on twitch. He had gotten 4 sets of challenges to achieve during his streams and each set would unlock gifted subs to his community. One of his friends he was playing with on stream got stuck on the Frost specter on the Mars bridge and could not beat it after 50 attempts. He was extremely frustrated and wanted to quit the game, but also didnt want to let his friends and the viewers down.

As far as I remember they were able to do only 1 set of challenges and could not show off the content DE had wanted them to.

 

A while later a change was made to the game where the Frost specter was replaced, moved to the end of the star chart and he would no longer cast hist 4th ability.

[quxier]

4 hours ago, -Moctezuma- said:

I am 100% sure they are a minority in the playerbase, but they are a loud one and will no doubt DEMAND for Duviri enemies to be nerfed and toned down, aswell as the difficulty of the overall Duviri world, an example of this is when some players got DE to nerf and tone down the level/difficulty of the Zariman quest from 60 to 20 or something like that, even tho most people seemed fine with it.

Keep in mind 2 things:

- It was meant for tutorial for new modes. It shouldn't be "too hard". If it's to hard you don't know if it's your gear that's too weak or you are doing something wrong.

- There were Eximus changes at that time. It's obvious that they have to fine tune it.

Oh, and it wasn't to 20 but

Quote

• Reduced enemy levels in the Angels of the Zariman quest from 50-55 to 40-45.
  • We want the missions to be challenging, but not so challenging that you cannot progress through the quest! The missions outside of the quest differ since they are not meant for tutorial purposes as they are in the quest.

4 hours ago, -Moctezuma- said:

I am hopeful this isn't the case and DE is wise enough to understand most of these complains come from people who aren't used to critical thinking when dealing against enemies or bosses, and I don't blame them because the regular Warframe gameplay doesn't require the player to think much about: "I am low in HP, maybe I should take cover!" or "I should kill the enemies healing the heavy unit before trying to kill the heavy!", common sense like this is present in most games but is ALMOST non existant in Warframe due to how brainlessly powerful we are.

3 hours ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

I'm pessimistic about the alternate start, and it's probably going to multiply the type of complaints you're expecting. I feel fine laughing at the people who have been around for a while and are just bad at video games, but it feels worse when it's just someone who hasn't been taught how to play. here's hoping DE does the alternate start well.

Blame "team mentality" and some (semi) forced into teams. You cannot beat X? You don't have specific mod? Go with team - they will "help" you. I've been playing solo since... DX9 break (no longer support). Some missions are "not hard" (you can do it solo if you try enough). Some are just straight up "do it with team or you are... in bad situation". When DE will keep forcing teamplay then game will still be cheesable and player will complain on solo aspect.

44 minutes ago, Terroriced said:

4 hours ago, -Moctezuma- said:

I am 100% sure they are a minority in the playerbase, but they are a loud one and will no doubt DEMAND for Duviri enemies to be nerfed and toned down, aswell as the difficulty of the overall Duviri world

You would be surprised to find out how many players ignore any text that appears anywhere on screen and any audio transmissions and hints.

You would be surprised to find out how many players cant figure out basic tasks, because they dont know which buttons to press, which mechanics exist or simply what they are supposed to do. This is not a minority, it is unfortunately true for the majority of Warframe players. Most of them dont make it that far to reach The New War.

Most Warframe players are low MR.

You would be surprised how bad certain aspect of game are.

Let's take Angels quest. When explaining Armagedon the guy literally put wall of text + some not easily known words (if you are not into certain fields). When playing "catch flying things" person keeps talking when you are playing game.

 

[SneakyErvin]

On the brightside. This is a new player starting point, so it will be much easier for DE to get to a "proper" difficulty since they dont need to cater to early progress frames/weapons and years and years and years of progression frames/weapons in the same content. Here we'll have the drifter for most part, then there will be a normal and a SP undercroft for instance, so nerfing the normal version if it is overtuned wont really matter for the rest of us.

[PR1D3]

LMAO I'm very excited and looking forward to them inevitably doing it. I find it hilarious with how I see the constant e-peen wagging from people who think they're hot S#&$ at the game cause of Adaptation. The moment the game puts any sort of minor resistance that causes a single trip up they will scream and cry harder than a newborn baby. "IT'S RUINING MY POWER FANTASY!!" They did it for Plains, for Fortuna, for Arbitrations, for New War, for a lot of things in fact. Are there balancing issues? Yes. God knows how much I talk about them. But a lot of the common complaints I see can be surmised to "git gud". 

[-Krism-]

TNW acted as a "purge" for all of those players; Duviri will only reinforce that

Learn some actual skills instead of your braindead Bramma + Wukong "strategy"

[ShogunGunshow]

6 hours ago, Pakaku said:

Demands don't have to be listened to, DE didn't budge on the "no quitting" policy with New War, and I may be wrong but I don't remember any particularly unreasonable nerfs to the overall quest either.

The archon's health was nerfed by half like less than a day after TNW released.

[cute_moth.npc]

4 hours ago, Vryheid said:

learn the mechanics

But mechanics are for cars ;_;

(I hope they have time some creative mechanics waiting for us)

[(PSN)rexis12]

I mean if Warframe was a mechanic heavy game that rewarded you for using said mechanics, I'm sure we'd be more inclined to use them.

Remember when, at one point, people learned and talked about how to best use the Dissapate function of Void Sling when it offered massive gameplay rewards for doing so?

Since we see that in Duviri demo there's a "Parry and get Overguard" kind of bonus, people would be more willing to actually engage and learn the mechanics when the game is willing to reward you for doing so.

What a concept amirite?

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

I'm actually waiting for the "This isn't warframe at all. Please give me back my Wukong with Kuva Zarr." posts. 

[-Moctezuma-]

2 hours ago, (PSN)jaggerwanderer said:

I'm actually waiting for the "This isn't warframe at all. Please give me back my Wukong with Kuva Zarr." posts. 

same lmao

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

They already know that a large swath of their playerbase cannot handle skill based combat, even at low skill ceilings like in TNW, yet they're putting out a whole update with timing based combat.  Which means that even IF that's what you want, it's probably going to be boring.  Given the state combat was in when they showed it off a while ago, I'd say it's probably going to be boring.

But the only take away I got from the release of yet another cinematic trailer for Duviri just a few hours ago was a line about "how many times can a man die?"  Which to me says they're going all in on some souls like nonsense.  Which is also demonstrated through gameplay they've shown, where one of the devs was fighting an enemy that unleashed a massive AOE bullet hell attack, and they died in like 4 hits.

All the evidence currently on hand tells me the combat here is going to be slow, boring, and have enemies with severely overtuned damage, so that if you stop paying attention for 2 seconds due to the tedious slog, you die and start over at a bonfire whatever that technicolor spreader thing is they showed off that serves as a checkpoint.

The only hope I have is that so far, all of their trailers have been full of things that you never see in the game.  So maybe it won't be absolutely annoying to playthrough.  And I'll be the first back in the forums to eat my words if this turns out to be fun by some miracle.  But it looks awful.

2 hours ago, (PSN)jaggerwanderer said:

I'm actually waiting for the "This isn't warframe at all. Please give me back my Wukong with Kuva Zarr." posts. 

It's almost like this is a game based heavily around grind, and people have invested in that grind, and they would like to use that investment during actual important bits of gameplay, and not just cracking relics.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

Y'all act like operator combat is complex. It's literally stripped down Warframe gameplay. People will be fine. Operator combat shouldnt be new players first experience so we will see how it goes.

[trst]

Because they didn't go and gut New War for the crymoaners I doubt they'd go and do much at all with such complaints for Duviri. Since the quest likely won't be as """difficult""" and probably won't lock your account into it on top of the Drifter content seeming entirely optional for now.

But if it does get "difficulty" adjustments I'm personally hoping it doesn't end up as Railjack 2. Where the entire mode is ruined by powercreep with every enemy/mechanic being nerfed.