If you're not going to devote dev resources to Kahl gameplay, remove it and add the tokens to the archon hunts

[Squick]

I'm just going to open with this: I'm never running another Kahl mission.

 

Nothing I'm going to say here is new, but you guys haven't done anything to address player complaints. Kahl is too slow. The missions are too repetitive. The bosses aren't interesting and can be downright cheap (Looking at you Wolf with stunlocking), and every time you guys introduce something else to them it just makes them worse. These things are honestly so bad they stain warframe's overall good gameplay. Just make them a brief quest and shift the reward pool to the archon mission.

[Pakaku]

So, how is this situation any different from the other 90% of old content in the game?

[(XBOX)AlingsasArrende]

More or less agree. The missions are a nice addition, and it's good that DE tries new things, but after running them a few times it is outright tedious.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Squick said:

The bosses aren't interesting and can be downright cheap (Looking at you Wolf with stunlocking),

Those are one thing I like about Kahl. Boses are little bit interesting and they are challenging. Not like Archons

[Circle_of_Psi]

"I don't like this thing, so it should be removed" Topic

 

Moving on

[Jivy]

It baffles me that there are only 3 MISSIONS and 1 of them is straight up reused from the quest i expected at least 5 and more to be added to have some variety but nope

[chaotea]

Honestly i think its fine. Ive reduced to just archon runs, but if i want more shards ill run kahl. It feels like its an option, but not one I have to do.

Still, it would be cool to see script added to future activities, and flesh out tickers stock with new rewards down the line.

[MaxTunnerX]

Topic title basically applies to everything in the game. All content both old and new. Its frustrating to see how all the updates are usually 50% at best. Like you get some cool art, story etc. and terrible gameplay (Kahl, Duviri), or just straight up content islands (Railjack), and nobody really cares after release. Only some minor tweaks here and there (like the life saving minor tweak of Kahl aka "save progress so you dont start from 0 every attempt") but it feels disjointed and terrible forever. And the question is, why only put 50% effort into something? Just dont do it at all or do it 100% is what I say. Its not a piece of code you have in your computer, its a thing other people have to play through for the rest of this game's lifespan.

And the biggest joke of all is when an update makes fun of the game. For example the only good thing about circuit is that it gives you very painfully grinded frames for much less effort (nidus, khora, trinity etc.), but thats exactly the problem. Why didnt they just patch the old way of getting the frames and instead made a completely new, redundant system that basically says "we know we screwed up with these drops, so go get them here"? Adding duplicate content on top rather than fixing current content is almost painful to watch.

Edited July 17, 2023 by MaxTunnerX

[Surbusken]

I would have let people play as Khal for regular missions to earn Khal syndicate standing. Same as wearing a sigil, only you are wearing Khal instead.

Then mixed it in with the other NPCs they made playable, the Corpus one and Teshin and whoever else, and thrown them into either a fresh PVE faction mode or a clean PVP experience. Or both.

Based on the premise that they added all those animations anyway and when it's a fresh start with fewer abilities and characters, it would be eaiser to balance.

So for instance it they wanted to make a raid PVE version of it, it wouldn't mean too much work to build those characters around mmo trinity with healer, tank, dps.

 

Like, my thing is I am still waiting on "necramechs on all maps" 2018, because I am not really that much into 'summer event gameplay'. I'd rather have items I can use everywhere.

I haven't even been to duviri content island one single time because I play operator. Same thing with everything else, railjack, khal etc. it needs to fit into the real, normal, actual game.

 

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

It would be better if after the 3 missions you do with Khal it would just turn into regular missions (extermination, Capture, defense) that alone would make it much better.

Also more stuff to do with stock, resources, void traces, that mechanic people want to fuse archon shards I honestly don't care just anything to give Khal some attention.

[Raarsi]

I wouldn't mind newer content that rewarded archon shards.

Other than that, all I can say on this matter, like pretty much every other form of content in this game, is "meh".

[SneakyErvin]

I would rather do 2 hunts per week, where the second one rewards us the Kahl stock.

And it isnt that I dislike slow content in WF since I still enjoy The Duviri Experience immensly and dont mind farming it nearly 3 months after it released. Kahl is just horribly done.

[0_The_F00l]

I believe having kahl do invasion missions against narmer is such a simple way ahead for this , 

It can be limited amount per week to avoid inflation.

And we can have a single sub objective per mission like we had bonus affinity objectives in the past.

[(XBOX)K1jker]

Down with Kahl!

[Veridian]

One thing in this game that gets me into the "ugh not again" mood is Kahl.

Just give any alternative.

Heck I'm not above paying plat to skip it, just anything.

[sunderthefirmament]

6 hours ago, Pakaku said:

So, how is this situation any different from the other 90% of old content in the game?

The biggest difference is that you can't use your arsenal.  In this regard, its closest analogs would be Wyrmius or Flappy Zephyr.  But unlike Wyrmius, Flappy Zephyr, or the other meme content in the Ludoplex, Kahl has an endless supply of valuable frame rewards locked behind his appallingly stale gameplay.

 

6 hours ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

"I don't like this thing, so it should be removed" Topic

 

Moving on

If content is triggering such a visceral reaction, that's valuable feedback to the developers.  Thanks for bumping this before moving on though.  I don't want DE to sweep the embarrassment that is Kahl under the rug.

 

19 minutes ago, Veridian said:

One thing in this game that gets me into the "ugh not again" mood is Kahl.

Just give any alternative.

Agreed.  I think the easiest option would be to give Chipper a Ticker-like store for stock.  Give us another use for starchart resources.  Put a cap on how much stock you can buy per day/week if need be.

[Voltage]

I can stomach the missions only because they take at most 30 minutes a week. I agree that the gameplay isn't exciting and the rewards are lackluster, especially when there's no Tauforged from the mode.

[(XBOX)Rez090]

👎 for this thread

👍 for Kahl, being a good boy and badass Grineer

[(PSN)Unstar]

I just wish the missions would auto-rotate each week like all other weekly content.  I enjoy 2 of the 3 missions, but every time I want to do those 2 missions I need to do a mission I dislike and then wait a week.  Which has resulted in my just not doing Kahl content anymore.

I mean seriously, imagine not being able to do (insert Warframe mission type you like) again until you did (insert Warframe mission type you dislike) and then waited a week.  It's a puzzling design, to say the least.

[trst]

They've not addressed the complaints because it's exactly as they wanted it to be while also being in a catch 22.

Kahl is slow by design so there's no reason to listen to feedback asking to speed him up. And even doing so, or even one common suggestion of giving him the jetpack in all missions by default, would require a redesign of at least two of the missions and all leads into the second issue.

The content was decisive enough with players, was already "completed", and is currently entirely optional beyond the shop exclusives. So adding anything to it or even devoting dev time there is going to cause more friction with players. While having no expectations of further development to excuse players complaining. And it being optional, on top of many players already swearing off the mode, means there's no incentive for players to engage with it content without making them feeling "forced" to do so. And adding rewards to incentivize return engagement just leads into the other problems.

So there's currently no reason for DE to put more time into the mode. It does what it was meant to do while there's likely very little return on investment of further dev time into it.

 

Also "deleting" content isn't an approach DE takes unless the content itself is problematic, which Kahl isn't. The content isn't inherently broken (like Trials were) nor is it non-functional in the current state of the content (like Archwing Defense was). If you want to avoid Kahl entirely then buy what you can from the Market/players for plat and ignore the mode entirely, you don't even need the Shards it offers when better ones only come from Hunts.

[Circle_of_Psi]

3 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

If content is triggering such a visceral reaction, that's valuable feedback to the developers.  Thanks for bumping this before moving on though.  I don't want DE to sweep the embarrassment that is Kahl under the rug.

That is a fair point, but the OP gave no feedback at all besides "I don't like it, it sucks" without offering any means of actual input or suggestions on how to fix it, besides "Remove it"

Feedback like that tends to get ignored, or you have the types that say "Git gud" Now in retrospect, my comment does sound like that and I do apologize, but removing it isn't gonna happen, there are many players who enjoy it.

Give us what can be changed about it without removing it in any format. 

[Voltage]

3 hours ago, trst said:

They've not addressed the complaints because it's exactly as they wanted it to be while also being in a catch 22.

Kahl is slow by design so there's no reason to listen to feedback asking to speed him up. And even doing so, or even one common suggestion of giving him the jetpack in all missions by default, would require a redesign of at least two of the missions and all leads into the second issue.

The content was decisive enough with players, was already "completed", and is currently entirely optional beyond the shop exclusives. So adding anything to it or even devoting dev time there is going to cause more friction with players. While having no expectations of further development to excuse players complaining. And it being optional, on top of many players already swearing off the mode, means there's no incentive for players to engage with it content without making them feeling "forced" to do so. And adding rewards to incentivize return engagement just leads into the other problems.

So there's currently no reason for DE to put more time into the mode. It does what it was meant to do while there's likely very little return on investment of further dev time into it.

You're basically explaining the entire development cycle of Warframe. This same thing happened to Mirror Defense, Defection, Corpus Railjack, Grineer Kuva Liches after we saw Sisters of Parvos launch, Arbitrations, Sanctuary Onslaught, and so many other modes over the years. There is a honeymoon phase when it's fresh, and in a few months it becomes abandonware in the sea of features the game offers.

The least they could do is make sure it ties into the entirety of the Veilbreaker update which would be Tauforged Shards. I like having maximum Archon Shards, and while Kahl isn't my favorite gameplay, I still like it more than Drifter gameplay (before Decree-creep). It would be nice if Kahl was a viable alternative to Archon Hunts for Tauforged Shards, and it's still important to address the absolute failure the pity system is at making Archon Shards (more specifically Tauforged Archon Shards) less awful to farm for. I literally just finished a 5-Tau Nova Prime yesterday, and I haven't missed a single Archon Hunt or Kahl mission since the launch of Veilbreaker; yikes. Either through Hunts themselves or Kahl's Garrison, there needs to be an upgrade path for existing Archon Shards the player earns to Tauforged in a reasonable manner. Kahl's Garrison is currently set up just as FOMO and a pain to engage with, especially knowing that only the Hunts offer the chance at Tauforged.

3 hours ago, trst said:

Also "deleting" content isn't an approach DE takes unless the content itself is problematic, which Kahl isn't. The content isn't inherently broken (like Trials were) nor is it non-functional in the current state of the content (like Archwing Defense was). If you want to avoid Kahl entirely then buy what you can from the Market/players for plat and ignore the mode entirely, you don't even need the Shards it offers when better ones only come from Hunts.

This is honestly such a lame excuse that is overused to no end. The "Trials were inherently broken, so deleting them was justified" holds no water in the landscape of Warframe. This game is patchwork and Scotch tape every update to be in a playable (not polished) state. It took 56 days (more than half a Prime Access worth of Resource Booster) to fix Resource Boosters in Duviri, and that omits the part they slid under the rug where nobody benefitted from the Double Resource Weekend whatsoever in Duviri at all. It's been 2 years and Tenet Detron still has bugged multishot damage. Condition Overload and GunCO still have discrepancies for years now too. Heck recently, right after they finally fixed Duviri Resource Boosters, they forgot to make sure Sprout in Teshin's Cave had them apply properly, and they had to hotfix that in two weeks later. Eidolons and the Profit-Taker Orb have had so many bugs documented from passionate players and hotfixes over the years to fix a myriad of problems, some to this day still not fixed. The age of content only correlates to how quickly it may be fixed (new content is more likely to see a hotfix). As long as something is playable, that's "good enough" and the content is often ignored. Trials were no different. They were playable for a majority of their existence with only a handful of updates completely breaking functionality (like the time DE broke Aura Mods across the entire game, or Earth Remaster update removing the floor in the first stage of Law of Retribution). It was obvious from their posts and Devstream conversations at the time that they wanted an excuse to replace Trials and their Arcanes and migrate that "point of progression" for players to a more accessible and new mode without spelling it out that way. I could sit down for a few hours and just start making a montage list of these things, but I'm sure you're old enough as a player to know this isn't new.

It's getting really old seeing this excuse regurgitated verbatim as an example of justification for a situation that is not special or unique whatsoever. 

Break Narmer missions themselves still have issues.

1. Last week I did my weekly, and I didn't get any Stock for the "Kahl Go Fast" challenge:
   • 
   • Is this visual? I don't know. I have too much Stock and only get +15 per week (because I buy each Shard) to know whether I gained +15 this week or broke even. 
2. Grenade functionality constantly breaks with Jetpack usage. You consume a grenade and nothing is thrown.
3. Grenade kills don't count constantly depending on whether the enemy was killed by the initial explosion or the Heat DoT.
4. Brothers' kills do not count towards the challenge "Made for This" (Kill 20 enemies).

All 4 of these bugs directly affect challenge completion, which is the entire point of the missions in the first place. I know how to get around the second, third, and fourth bugs in my list, but it's just frustrating.

Again,

4 hours ago, Voltage said:

I can stomach the missions only because they take at most 30 minutes a week.

But come on, these need to be maintained. If DE can't be committed to keeping something polished, then don't even bother adding it. Archwing, Railjack, Break Narmer, whatever. It would be much less frustrating for players and a much easier load on DE if they just cut everything from this game that they have no intention on maintaining and just merged reward tables to accommodate progressional items so that nobody is missing out. If you want to hold the Trials example as a truth, then there's a lot to remove.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Voltage

[(XBOX)Tanta Cinta]

13 hours ago, Pakaku said:

So, how is this situation any different from the other 90% of old content in the game?

Kahl can't move like a warframe, and even after becoming our friend and having access to our arsenal, he still chooses to use his... machete and grakata... 

The other 90% of "old" content has given us the option of variety. Kahl missions do not, which is why they got boring so quickly.

12 hours ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

"I don't like this thing, so it should be removed" Topic

 

Moving on

 You're moving on from a thread that discusses some crucial points in why Kahl gameplay is underwhelming and disappointing? How are you not seeing how repetitive the missions are........ 

Edited July 17, 2023 by (XBOX)Tanta Cinta

[(PSN)robotwars7]

Kahl is just another example of the "add and forget" philosophy that DE has followed for years now. chances are after seeing enough negative feedback regarding Kahl and to some extent Drifter in Duviri, DE have no further intention of trying out new playable characters, which means Kahl won't get expanded on. a shame since he's one of the better characters in the game and his movement isn't so bad with the Hellion Jetpack.

[CrownOfShadows]

Honestly, it had potential and it's been squandered, like so much in warframe.

Give us an arsenal for some variety even if it's just Grakata-Exergis-Stug-Gorgon/Slaytra-Machete-Prova and then give us co-op missions that are just glorified exterminates and then I'll be happy to play it. An exploration of the Grineer / Corpus underbelly of this game could be fantastic, and it could also scratch the difficulty urge that they are so scared of doing with warframes.

Commit to it at least enough to make it enjoyable please, otherwise don't waste all that dev time on it, especially if you're wanting us to play it weekly while you get to forget about it and work on the next cool thing.