Melee: Present and Future goals!

[AlphaPHENIX]

1 hour ago, VisionAndVoice said:

But, about moving channeling away. I'll get to the point - what of Channeling Mods?

They said on the stream that Rivens with Channeling stats will be altered, so hopefully the same for the rest of the mods (I actually use Focuse Energy sometimes)

[ZinGrin]

How are long ranged weapons going to work in smaller spaces?  Will the game think that just because my weapon hit the floor or wall before it hits the intended target, that I'm trying to melee through walls and not do anything except alert the guy?  I already get forced to melee the flying shield generator on nullifiers when I'm trying to hit the bubble down!  Worst case I'm imagining is melee being blocked behind a small pebble on the floor.

Assuming the above isn't the case, why not have a range penalty when striking through solid objects?  Melee through walls is kind of a necessary function, when enemies decide to spawn in ceilings, walls, & floors (fissure missions are an example of that).

Dumping your entire combo counter for a single heavy attack also sounds ridiculous.  Will having 0 combo = no heavy alowed?  Why not spend some combo instead?

I use melee a lot more than I use guns, all kinds of builds.  Stance combo focused, quick melee focused, maiming for high range weapons, status, crit & hybrid, etc.  Based on the current information so far I strongly dislike it.  If you want to make melee better overall, don't fix what isn't broken.  There are plenty other things that are not melee that suck the fun out of the room.

Negatives aside, dodging out of combos, combo buildup from blocking, and directional ground slam are good stuff.

PS. If melee is going to change this much, we need to be able to disassemble zaws.  Not looking forward for rebuilding them all a 3rd time.

[__Beowulf__]

hace 1 minuto, Kurogumihime dijo:

With the snap of DE's Fingers they can wipe half of the melee players in the game!

*DE Snaps Fingers*

Atterax: "I don't feel so good"

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

Now that we are reworking melee how about separating exalted modding from our weapons. 

[LykanBlood]

what about rivens with channeling dmg

 

[XzWasPzX]

MR19

 

I have never used Maiming Strike, but i dont like the changes. Pls reconsider it, i dont think this is the way to make the game more *fun*. At all.

[Aechmea]

8 minutes ago, LazerSkink said:

I'm just fearing what will happen to Life Strike, being the only reason I care about Channeling at all.

same... life strike is literally mandatory for low armor frames if you want to use melee only... at least we may get a better passive for zenurik heh.

Edit: maybe channeling mods like life strike, Dispatch Overdrive etc should become Arcanes for all melee?

[GinKenshin]

it's a decent concept in general, DE couldn't give a f*ck about balancing it's energy costs which is the main reason nobody used it in the first place....having sub-par weps with only 0.2x+ chenneling dmg more than the rest didn't help either....

+1 added to cool things DE couldn't bother with. welcome to AW, trials, pvp and many others 

[WaylanderG]

Wow page 10 already

Im always up for changes and trying new things. I agree melle shouldn't work through walls. And some melle have massive range. BUT I do like to use my zenistar when playing a solo defence? And this as we know relies on maxing the melle range. Is this going to kill zenistar? I can understand maybe this also shouldn't work through walls and closed doors. But please after finally finding a good range riven don't take that away from me.

[Lancars]

1 minute ago, WaylanderG said:

Wow page 10 already

Im always up for changes and trying new things. I agree melle shouldn't work through walls. And some melle have massive range. BUT I do like to use my zenistar when playing a solo defence? And this as we know relies on maxing the melle range. Is this going to kill zenistar? I can understand maybe this also shouldn't work through walls and closed doors. But please after finally finding a good range riven don't take that away from me.

Yea but looks like it's slowed down. So everyones accepting the nerfs.

[Koldraxon-732]

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

[Original post]

Response is in spoilers, to save others from having to scroll through it:

Spoiler

Long version, with more detail:

Spoiler

 

Meleeing through objects/walls/static_geometry deemed unacceptable. 
I agree, though there should be a punch-through stat for select melee weapons.

Foreword: suggestions will have numbers before them.
1: have blocking run on the same 'bar' as aimgliding does: when taking damage beyond a certain amount (or a lot of impact damage/knockback effects), this would drain that unseen bar by showing wall-latching effects and the Warframe not flinching or taking the damage they otherwise would've. 2: If a Warframe blocks an attack or series of attacks that would shut down their shield, they would get staggered but their shields would not drop below a certain percentage.

Any ideas for how to reuse channeling FX?
3: current channeling effects could be used on certain Warframe abilities, like when Chroma dumps his pelt. Alternatively, they should trigger when the combo counter is above a certain number to indicate when they can use heavy attacks, or stay active when a finisher-enabled target is in close proximity. 4: Heavy/charged attacks should be fast enough to flow with the existing movesets and, in my opinion if that doesn't happen, they should deal finisher damage as compensation thanks to how long some melees need to charge-attack.

Footage of melee movesets on sword-class weapons:
Based on the Devstream, the air-slam attack animations, even if they're placeholder, look perfect. I don't see the need to change them that much, unless it's per-weapon.

Opinion on the completion of gun+blade:
Also, the dual-wielding of ANY 1h secondary and melee is a greatly appreciated feature, but I have to ask: objective items like Datamass cause dual-sidearms to become single-sidearms, but the same doesn't work with most melees visually. 5: Otherwise, consider a more extreme approach (i.e: Latron + Reaper Primes held by Frost Prime mid bullet-jump; Tigris + Galatine Primes held by Nekros Prime, and so on; any weapon that could be held with one hand should be considered, though staves and polearms will be a unique challenge).

6: Any consideration to having these objects carried on the hip? 7: On that note, I would like to be able to take a weapon like Hikou/Spira Prime and pair it with Nikana Prime, using only one of the two sidearms (penalty: half clip, benefit: 2x reload speed).

Stats being reworked due to channeling no longer existing:
Also, based on what I've just read, massive stat changes/buffs to all weapons? Hopefully Fang Prime will become less of a Pre-Buff Bronco Prime and more of a decent pair of daggers, as they are the only pair of Prime daggers as of this moment.

 

Ideas, listed; short version:

Spoiler

-Introduce punch-through mods for melees to give those who like doing that kind of thing a choice: less damage for more range via bypassing some cover?
-Blocking should not run on energy due to how energy is difficult to acquire if you don't run with 'pizzas' or  School or even Energy Siphon. Instead it should have it's own health pool of sorts, which is tied to the same pool aimglide operates with.
-Blocking to prevent knockbacks, knockdowns, unwanted movements (when grounded or on walls).
-Blocking to be used as a shield/damage gate (with a stagger being the drawback).
-Channeling effects to be used when activating certain Warframe powers, or when the Combo Counter reaches a value that can be used for a heavy attack, or when finisher-enabled enemies are within finishing range.
-Heavy/charged attacks should be fast enough to work with the fastest of movesets, without speed mods. If that doesn't happen, make them deal finisher damage due to how long a charged attack takes (people usually manage to kill what you're trying to kill before you even start such an attack, kind of thing).
-Any consideration for dual-sidearms to be added to the single-sidearm list (benefit: 2x reload speed, drawback: 1/2 clip), since the animations already exist due to objective items?

 

 

[Nash]

All of this sounds great, the only problems for me is that I feel as though the animations  arent as fluid and flow as they should be, I was hoping that they would've overhauled melee completely to make it better and look better not just simply keeping old animations but change how they function through light and heavy attacks. Whenever I play DMC4 SE the melee combat it just flows and mashes together despite you constantly switching things up. But when I look at this I'm not really sure, I've already defaulted to Final Harbinger because of how fluid it is and how it flows and comes together. Its basic attack is simple, sweet and it works. Some of the other melee stances combos are so clunky and have awkward movements that I feel as though the animators are just doing it to make it look "nice" instead of practical and SWEET AF when you execute it so I'm having my doubts about how this will turn out some what.

[kyori]

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Base damage increased significantly to compensate for loss of channeling and combo counter multiplier on normal attacks

That should be a very big nerf on melee,.

If it loses combo counter multiplier on normal attacks, it will mean melee no longer scales. So having higher base damage seems pretty... meaningless unless players play low level content all the time.

If combo counter multiplier only works on heavy attack, it will mean players are forced to equip melee as main weapon in order to have that scaling buff, which made quick melee useless in mid-high level content. 

Getting rid of spin2win sounds good but getting rid of combo counter multiplier on normal attacks seems... why do you guys want to change that? It is not fun that melee damage can scale, resulting us having better survivability  in high level content?

[DhatZ]

1 hour ago, lihimsidhe said:

Before I begin with Warframe's combat system, I'd like to briefly talk about Devil May Cry's combat system.  Without going into too much detail the player does not have to choose between 'firearm mode' or 'melee mode' as a Tenno does.  It also has a unified combo system.  Meaning that regardless of the weapon a DMC player has the combos they learned for their first weapon works on any subsequent weapon they acquire.

While there is a lot more to DMC's combat than that, Capcom's approach has created a combat system that is near peerless in its execution.

Warframe is a different game on many levels so a straight copy and paste into Warframe wouldn't work well as any of us would hope.  However, there are 4 things Warframe can import from DMC that would work wonders:

• The elimination of 'firearm mode' and 'melee mode'.  
• The implementation of universal combos.
• A massive reduction in aerial attack cooldowns.
• A way for Tenno to launch enemies into the air a moderate distance (think of an Operator's Void Blast but sends an enemy straight up).

How It Would Work

Quick Melee Is the Gateway to All Combos. Any combo a stance grants can be executed with the quick melee button.  However, considering Berserker and Fury are a thing, the commands to execute said combos need to account for this.

Combos Have Universal Inputs. Once a new player learns the combos for their MK-1 Bo or Skana, they now know how to execute all combos Warframe will throw at them.

At Least Two Types of Combos Per Weapon. An AoE focused one (because Warframe is a horde game) and a single target focused one.

Block Anytime, Anywhere. The Tenno either can press a single key to block or a combination of keys to block and they... block.  No switching to a dedicated melee mode to do so.

Channeling Becomes a Universal Buff Mode. Available at the press of a single key, the Warframe surges with void power. A warframe's parkour, firearms, melee, blocks, and abilities are all buffed in some way.  Adjust the energy economy to be proportionate to the buff granted. The reason channeling isn't in widespread use is because by time the average player switches to melee mode to use it, Mr. xXSpin2WinYOLOXx just cleared half the room.  It's as the old saying goes: if you can't beat them, join them.  

Aerial Combat. As it stands now there is a 1-2 second delay between aerial attacks and I have no idea why.  If players could launch enemies into the air and pursue them with flurries of aerial attacks, I would wager a lot of Tenno would find that fun and useful.

Make Wall Attacks Useful, Please. I have tried my hardest to use these in combat and despite my best efforts they just aren't.  Simply allow them to travel in the direction a player is aiming alongside with a massive buff to distance traveled and just like that, they are now worthwhile.

Charged Attacks. Take inspiration from Ninja Gaiden.  If charged attacks evoke a sense of power and unleash a massively amped up attack, I'd wager Tenno would use them.  Especially in solo.

Not all Down Attacks Should Be Slam Attacks. A Tenno's option while in the air is either to do an attack that prevents them from attacking for 1-2 seconds, period or a slam attack.  There are times I'm looking down just to track the enemy but I know if I attack I'll slam and put myself in danger. Give us more options of what to do while airborne.

I feel if the above suggestions were followed not only would it be of a lesser scope than what DE has planned but it would be a more accessible system overall that gives rise to depth built on the backs of proven legends such as Devil May Cry and Ninja Gaiden.

The biggest problem still remains though: DE could create the most exquisite combat system known to man BUT the enemies in Warframe are dumb as #*!%.  Fodder.  Trash mobs.  But that's a whole other day.  A whole other story.

I only played the reboot of DMC on PC but the differences are obvious. I can't even think that warframe would work with enemies being comboed in air, however I agree the biggest pain in the current melee is the S#&$ timer on aerial attacks.

I just want them to put the slam on the heavy attack button and the aerial to be JUST forward facing normal attacks but in the air.

Also get rid of wall attacks, just use the slam or targeted air melee when latching.

The only slight problem is that aim gliding will need to be combined with blocking in the air.

[Jackel7]

Could we get a combo command list that appears over weapon name+stance so we can see our combos in action?

[InsaneAlex95]

Teh he, already started too see people loosing their minds that their ''meme strike'' got nerfed. PFFT big deal its still OP but not that broken OP.

[--Nef-Anyo--]

Whilst I do not care about the spin to win, even if I am guilty of using it as i find it most satisfying as I am a lover of BDSM, the system did need an over haul. Obviously some or more mods will be nerf or not useful any more like maiming strike, especially if its multiplicative as opposed to additive like it is now. 

If I'm not mistaken, during the dev stream I am sure I heard the range of mods and the weapons themselves will be reduced. Could you confirm this?

As someone mentioned above with regards to the dispositions of melee weapons, will these be dramatically changed due to the current meta being played? The obvious example of spin to win Scoliac? Whilst I do appreciate changes for the good or bad, I do believe if in the community's eyes there is a big nerf, they will feel cheated of the 000s of plat they spent on rivens and farming for kuva etc.

Personally I have seen this coming as we've had the other weapon pass already and melee was only going to be a matter of time before the changes. It was only a few days ago someone on the forums was asking whether he should keep maiming strike to sell for higher later and I did advice him to sell asap. Todays dev stream merely confirmed my thoughts.

So when are we going to have a rework of Rivens exactly? There are far to many RNG on top of RNG at play with rivens and farming kuva over and over is not fun in my books. I mean you said you wanted to change the old key system as it was repetitive in the void but DE has merely swapped one repetitive way of farming for another. Ive done a little kuva in my time and frankly I find it cancer. If i want a decent riven I just buy and sell some off the trade chat without the hassles of RNG and repetitive game play.

I'm glad I sold my scoliac riven a month or so ago for 3k, the guy like many others must be kicking themselves if there love is going to be killed off ;-)

[Duduminador]

@[DE]Rebecca

Suggestion: Swap spin attacks for charged attacks.
* Holding 'e' (default attack button) causes the frame to unleash the current spin attack that strikes multiple mobs around it (and much like charge attacks, the time it takes to charge is not affected by attack speed mods, altho the animation is, just like Charge Attacks, also it wouldn't BE a forward movement, a still spin, it simply wouldn't add forward movement to whatever movement is being played atm, notice that it wouldn't kill completly forward movement, as it's also possible to perform a slide while charging with the current game, it's just not something explotable)

* Sliding + attack performs the current Charged attack animation. Which wouldn't require charging but would be triggered on sliding forward, as spin attacks, except that instead of a round spinning movement, it's the forward animation used by Charge attacks, if you think about it, having forward attack being a "charge attack" makes a lot of sense.

Actually now that I think about it, it sounds so obvious it probably has been suggested already.

[SilentMobius]

As long as something useful happens to life strike and we have some useful way of scaling upwards for long games. I welcome this change.

I've been here since before channeling and stances were a thing and while the current system had good intentions the fundamental lack of maneuverability during combos is much too big of a problem.

I'm very interested in how it will be possible to "slowly" roll this out though, seems like something that has to happen all at once to me.

Bravo DE I look forward to testing.

[paavis99]

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Melee attacks (including spin attacks) will no longer sweep through walls or objects.

i'm wondering, this won't affect Excaliburs "Exalted blade", right?

[(PSN)TehMunkeyKing]

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We're still working on how/if to include the 'cool factor' of Channeling in combat.

Suggestion: Higher Combo Counter, greater 'cool factor' akin to Channeling FX. 

[Golmihr]

Quote

Channeling is blocking, blocking is channeling! Normal blocking now performs like channeled blocking currently does. Experiments such as constant energy drain or a separate resource, blocked hits adding to Combo Counter are ongoing.

People don't use channeling because they don't want to rely on energy for melee. Your solution just seem to create a bigger problem by now making blocking undesirable.

[Ozamchist]

Hmm, if the significant boost to base damage is at least equal to how strong a given melee weapon is at 3.5x - 4.5x multipliers the change might not be as bad, acceptable even.

[MartinVole]

Not sure how to feel about no longer damaging through walls, since there are instances where enemies get inaccessible by normal means still, and hard to reach containers that may be inaccessible otherwise. Even with updates to the void, we still get issues of loot becoming unobtainable otherwise. But I'm going to leave that as is for now.

What I really don't understand is the potential cost intensive blocking. Even with 100% DR, I don't want to really bother with it over other forms of DR, especially if it costs energy. Plus, mods like Guardian Derision benefit best when you actually RECEIVE damage instead of mitigating it entirely, especially if you have mods like Rage and whatnot, or for frame powers that utilize damage, like Vex Armor on Chroma. I'd rather channeling be gone entirely, and instead blocking be given other incentives to match the flair of each weapon class.

[(XBOX)BigLithuanian]

I like a lot! Will any mods(I don't use condition overload build so I don't care about that and welcome that change) or melee weapons be nerfed/reworked?? It looks like Melees are gonna be a lot more fun and worth it. Thank you so much DE