Why do people say Ash isn't a good invisibility frame?

[OminousVortex]

Why do I hear people say Ash isn't a good invisibility frame? Loki gets a little more invisibility per energy point spent. (Loki's invisibility costs 4.17 energy points per second. Compared to Ash's 4.375 energy points per second. So 0.205 energy points less per second.) Barley a difference. Aside from that, the functionality and use of their invisibility is virtually identical.

Ash is a lot more durable. More shields and double the health.

Loki is better at crowd control, with radial disarm and decoy.

I enjoy using both frames but tend to die a lot more as Loki. Ash's durability gives me more time to cast invisibility before his health goes out.

 

Now here's what really blows my mind... "Ivara is a better invisibility frame than Ash" 

That's it. Mind blown. Exploded.

Ivara goes into limp mode when you activate Prowl. "But you can move faster..." I'm not rolling around the whole time. I'm just not. Been there, tried it... won't be doing it again.

Melee attacks cost energy. Taking damage costs energy. Can't run. Sorry, I'm over it

I understand this is a niche frame. There are some missions where Ivara can and really does shine. But to say her Prowl is better than Ash's smoke screen... please.

Hope I didn't offend any of the Ivara mains out there. (I probably did) But I had to get this off my chest.

Edited June 17, 2019 by OminousVortex

[DarkRuler2500]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb OminousVortex:

Melee attacks cost energy. Taking damage costs energy. Can't run. Sorry, I'm over it

Ivara Melees don't cost energy as long as you don't channel.

[Aldain]

Ash's invis is a bit more of an escape technique than a bypass one (Loki and Ivara) as it lacks the mods and utility effects of the others.

Really any invis ability isn't bad, the thing is that Ash is a kill specialized frame first and foremost, whereas Ivara and Loki are significantly more leaned to Battlefield Control and Utility.

So all in all it isn't a bad invis ability since there are so few of them, it just has much less lending to Ash being an "invisibility frame" as Ash is more "A frame with an invisibility ability".

[OminousVortex]

9 minutes ago, DarkRuler2500 said:

Ivara Melees don't cost energy as long as you don't channel.

Edited. First image was to big

Edited June 17, 2019 by OminousVortex

[(NSW)Mbek]

*Laughs in Octavia*

[AzureTerra]

If you going melee heavy with the Stealth Archer frame your doing it wrong anyway.

[OminousVortex]

7 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Ash's invis is a bit more of an escape technique than a bypass one (Loki and Ivara) as it lacks the mods and utility effects of the others.

Really any invis ability isn't bad, the thing is that Ash is a kill specialized frame first and foremost, whereas Ivara and Loki are significantly more leaned to Battlefield Control and Utility.

So all in all it isn't a bad invis ability since there are so few of them, it just has much less lending to Ash being an "invisibility frame" as Ash is more "A frame with an invisibility ability".

Yes, when taking into consideration all the abilities, they are totally different frames with two different purposes. But I've heard a few reviewers comment that Loki's invisibility (specifically invisibility) was far superior to Ash. Strip away all the other abilities, there's very little difference between Smoke Screen and Loki's Invisibility.

[DatDarkOne]

24 minutes ago, DarkRuler2500 said:

Ivara Melees don't cost energy as long as you don't channel.

It does cost energy.  It's just not much of an issue with good efficiency and the number of energy orb drops from enemies.  

9 minutes ago, AzureTerra said:

If you going melee heavy with the Stealth Archer frame your doing it wrong anyway.

You do know that I melee quite a bit as Ivara, and do it quite well too with my Venka Primes.  😛😀 

Edit: It's only wrong if you fail or suck at it.  😁 

Edited June 17, 2019 by DatDarkOne

[trst]

With max duration builds Smokescreen caps out at 24.48 seconds while Invisibility caps at 36.72 seconds.

But on top of that Loki also has Hushed Invisibility which is especially good for anyone who doesn't have Silent Battery and Smokescreen's stagger can potentially cause issues when trying to go full stealth. Loki also has a higher base movement speed which is kinda a benefit for stealthing.

Since being invisible is the only real factor when trying to stealth a mission these few minor differences technically make Loki better. Also when trying to stealth a mission damaging abilities and health stats shouldn't matter so the rest of Ash's kit doesn't really help.

 

But really this is all a min-maxing issue, Ash is still a perfectly good stealth frame and can do plenty of other things Loki can't do.

Edited June 17, 2019 by trst

[Aldain]

7 minutes ago, OminousVortex said:

Strip away all the other abilities, there's very little difference between Smoke Screen and Loki's Invisibility.

Abilities are the only thing that makes a Warframe anything but a weapons-platform with legs.

I do agree that the Invisibility on Ash isn't as bad as some people frame (no pun intended) it, but in terms of Invisibility focus, Loki, Ivara and Octavia have more going for them in terms of combination and utility that works with their invisibility, whereas Ash doesn't rely on his invis for anything but a good Bladestorm room wipe or a quick escape from a bad situation.

Overall it isn't a bad invisibility skill, its just the lowest utility one, which some people see as redundant, despite Ash's stealth still being good for what it is.

[Wrum]

1. why are you meleeing with ivara?

2. out of all the invisibility abilities ash has the worst one. that being said its not a bad ability just the worst in its category.

[(PSN)Yes-Man-Kablaam]

they're all perfectly fine invisibility frames really

[Diangelius]

Apart from everything that people mentioned above, I only use Smokescreen as a mechanics to reduce energy cost of other abilities, especially Bladestorm.

[Marvelous_A]

It's the worst in invisibility category. 

[BETAOPTICS]

1 hour ago, OminousVortex said:

Yes, when taking into consideration all the abilities, they are totally different frames with two different purposes. But I've heard a few reviewers comment that Loki's invisibility (specifically invisibility) was far superior to Ash. Strip away all the other abilities, there's very little difference between Smoke Screen and Loki's Invisibility.

This comparison in the context of stealth doesn't work as well as it looks like on the paper because the fundamental component of stealth is its reliability. Take Banshee. Yeah she can also technically be stealthy with her Silence ability causing the enemy to temporarily get stunned if within the area of effect, allowing the performance of a stealth kill. But is her ability a reliable stealth tool? No.

Ash's Smoke Screen ability is more reliable tool giving a brief tool of stun and invisibility frame of base duration of 8 seconds (max 24,48) while in comparison to Ivara 3rd ability has the invisibility duration of 79 seconds (energy pool 262, ability cost 25, max energy drain 3/s; f(x)/s = (262-25)/3s = 79/s) as base, and Loki Invisibility that has the base duration of 12 seconds (max 36,72), and finally Octavia whose Metronome: Nocturne buff grants base 15 duration of invisibility to her and her allies (max 46,9). The less there is visible downtime the better because each downtime is a potential threat to be spotted and compromised. When compounding invisibility time and downtime frequencies, the contrast becomes even more apparent.  Thus mathematically and statistically Loki, Ivara and Octavia all have a superior capacity for stealthing than Ash does.

Does this mean Ash is a bad stealth frame? Not necessarily no. Ash trades stealth to more damage and with Arcane Trickery or better yet two Arcane Trickery he can upkeep his invisibility going by using his 4th ability which already synergizes with stealth by being less expensive to use when in stealth. That is more aggressive and combat oriented use for stealth however, which is what Ash is thematically and functionally more about in general. He uses stealth aggressively rather than defensively like the others do. Personally I do think that if we only consider max duration then 24,48 seconds is plenty of time to stealth and get things done in that time before recasting the ability if necessary.

Edited June 17, 2019 by BETAOPTICS

[BLI7Z]

Smokescreen can be very useful. If you are playing with Ash it's because you want to kill stuff, not just run to an objective. So that area stun of Smokescreen is totally worth it. Ash's kit is extremely usefull if well played... his "lesser" invisibility is only lesser if you want to go full stealth and no kill mode. 

[SgtHotPepper]

Il y a 2 heures, OminousVortex a dit :

Loki is better at crowd control, with radial disarm and decoy.

I enjoy using both frames but tend to die a lot more as Loki. Ash's durability gives me more time to cast invisibility before his health goes out.

 

My Loki with energy syphon and max durability never lose health because the enemies never see him.

I dont even need kill or trash container for energy because i gain more that i use to maintain invisibility.

For killing, every hit is a finisher so no big deal.

And with the amalgam serration he's even faster.

The challenges like "exterminate minimum level 30 without being detected" are cheescake.

[ChaoticEdge]

they nerf ash's invisibility because it was unfair fighting during the stupid clan war.  The fact it started from that for the game stop using the clan war and hadn't un-nerf ash's ability of his invisibility because he was too op in cloaking timing (say that to ivar) pretty much ash still able do better with small things and small time which we don't talk about the clan war.

 

As the time being he is fine and don't really need his cloaking much when you got teleportation abilities with that skiajati

Spoiler

Best use alternated teleport so you can do finisher move on enemies.

 

 

[Chewarette]

Why are you even comparing Ash to Loki to Ivara (and somehow forgets Octavia) ?

That's the same as comparing Chroma to Inaros to Hildryn to Rhino in terms of tanking. Doesn't make sense at all.

[Lutesque]

Its because Of Duration..... it always comes down to Duration.

5 hours ago, OminousVortex said:

Ivara goes into limp mode when you activate Prowl. "But you can move faster..." I'm not rolling around the whole time. I'm just not. Been there, tried it... won't be doing it again.

Once you upgrade your Space Child with Naramon's mind Step it really doesn't matter.... He/She/It will travel faster than any Warframe....

 

In any case if being Invisible is literally the only criteria that matters then obviously Octavia wins in that regard.... she can stay inivisble Indefinitely..... 

I mean ivara can do the same thing with Cloak Arrow but for Octavia its just Simpler....

One way or another Both Loki and ash will have to Become visible again.... Octavia doesn't.

 

Although I will say in Ash's case it doesn't matter because Arcane Trickery was made specifically for Him...

4 hours ago, AzureTerra said:

If you going melee heavy with the Stealth Archer frame your doing it wrong anyway.

Uhm.... you should try Ivara with Redeemer Prime.....

3 hours ago, Wrum said:

1. why are you meleeing with ivara?

Bonus Stealth Damage....

 

[Autongnosis]

It is mostly a legacy thing. Used to be somewhat relevant when smokescreen was a full body animation that rooted you in place and couldn't be cast in the air. Otherwise Ash invisibility is in the same ballpark as loki's so not exactly bad. 

[(PSN)Silverback73]

8 hours ago, Aldain said:

Ash's invis is a bit more of an escape technique than a bypass one (Loki and Ivara) as it lacks the mods and utility effects of the others.

Really any invis ability isn't bad, the thing is that Ash is a kill specialized frame first and foremost, whereas Ivara and Loki are significantly more leaned to Battlefield Control and Utility.

So all in all it isn't a bad invis ability since there are so few of them, it just has much less lending to Ash being an "invisibility frame" as Ash is more "A frame with an invisibility ability".

This.  Ultimately it comes down to duration...you simply don’t get the same return on investment when you use Primed Continuity/Continuity.

Ash speed/duration builds don’t stack up well vs Loki.

Ivara is slower and deliberate and can bypass lasers with her Augment and Loki is faster and his invis lasts longer.

I’ve made the build-type for ash you are talking about work when built for slash procs in Infested arbitrations but that is a specialized, brutal and basic survival build utilizing his passive with Vulpine Mask and movement speed and minimal use of his 4.

Edited June 17, 2019 by (PS4)Silverback73

[(PSN)robotwars7]

both abilities are more or less the same, it's they way they are used: Ash goes invisible to kill people, Loki goes Invisible to avoid people, and Ivara goes Invisible to pickpocket and shoot people.

[SneakyErvin]

It is mostly the duration.

However, iirc, Ash can recast Smokescreen on the run and during it's duration. Loki needs to stop shortly and requires the stealth to run out before reapplying it. Ash can also be useful in most content that requires damage dealing while Loki is more of a straight up defensive frame. Ivara is a bit of both, slower but more reliable at everything. She has decent CC, good damage potential and a permanent stealth that is very cheap.

[Toran]

It all depends on what you want and what you got.

I use a a high duration/efficiency with Seeking Shuriken (strength don't matter for this) on Ash. It's a melee-heavy boss killer build with enough duration for convenient stealth.

Thanks to maxed out focus schools and void dashes, movement speed no longer matters to me.

For beginners however, Loki's still the best choice as you get similar stealth results at far lower costs in forma and mod levels.

When it comes to endgame (Fashion), Ash is my top choice.

Edited June 17, 2019 by Toran