bullet jumping is bad, should be regulated

[Teljaxx]

5 hours ago, MJ12 said:

The problem with unbalanced options is when they're options and lock you out of other, superior, options. There are no opportunity costs to having bullet jumping and wallrunning and mantling and sprinting and dodging and regular jumping. You don't have to choose between Sprint and Bullet Jump. You don't have to choose between Aimglide and Bullet Jump. You don't have to ask yourself "do I want to wall run, or do I want to bullet jump?" The options all exist as default capabilities, which are useful for different things. So it doesn't actually matter that bullet jumping is by far stronger than the other movement options because the other movement options are not actually competing with bullet jump. Complaining about the 'bullet jump meta' is seeing a fighting game and complaining about the 'punch and kick meta.' Or maybe angrily complaining about the 'shooting guns at enemies meta' in Call of Duty. Bullet jumping is the core element of Parkour 2.0 and the Warframe movement system, of course it's going to "outclass" other movement mechanics, which are pretty clearly specialist mechanics that exist to complement bullet-jumps, not as a replacement for bullet-jumps. Knowing when to use said mechanics is important and will get you farther in movement, but they're not supposed to be alternatives to bullet jumping and therefore they aren't balanced as alternatives to bullet-jumping. They're aids to bullet-jumping (the core of the movement system) and work fine in that context.

And bullet jumping has actually made movement in Warframe better. Now, instead of having to memorize specific paths in each tile, you just need to get a feel for your movement abilities, making the game both more interesting and actually making skill, rather than rote memorization, useful. Now you can actually go through tiles quickly, without having to memorize specific shortcuts, if you understand that vertical obstacles aren't really obstacles, you can basically climb any surface of any height, and you can glide very long distances. This means that you don't need walkthroughs or rote learning, all you need is practice and understanding the movement system. I was there when the tilesets were "much more interesting to traverse" and they sucked, dude. The game was slower, movement was fiddlier and more frustrating, rushers just stacked endless sprint mods or Zorencoptered to skip content, creating the exact same problem except if you didn't load up on equipment specifically to rush, you would never be able to make comparable speed to a rusher, and it wasn't all that fun or useful to do fiddly wallrunning (which tended to only be actually useful for a handful of puzzles) based upon rote memorization of predetermined paths.

You do have to choose between different movement options. You do have to ask yourself "Do I wall run, or do I bullet jump?" When you come to an obstacle, you have to choose one method to get past it. You come to a platform you need to get up to: You can either run up the wall next to it, or you can bullet jump directly onto it. You come to a large gap, and have to get to the other side: You can either run around the edge, or you can bullet jump straight across. You cannot do both at the same time. So yes, it is a choice you have to make. And you have to make that choice extremely often.

The main reason that using wall running used to suck was not because the level design was bad, but because the old wall running was bad. It locked you into a very specific and extremely limited animation, and tended to have extremely broken physics. But the new wall running is excellent, which is why it is such a shame that almost no one ever uses it. You should try playing a few missions without ever bullet jumping. You might be surprised at just how well these tiles are designed, and how much fun it is to get through them, when you aren't rocketing through and ignoring 90% of it.

 

This part is for all the anti-nerfers: In most games, the main thing that makes them fun and engaging to play is the limitations imposed upon the players. It's really what you can't do, more than what you can do, that defines a game. This is because the challenge is about overcoming those limitations. So the more limitations you have, the more challenging, and interesting, the game can be. Just look at any good Dark Souls game. The main reason they are such deep, challenging, and engaging games is because of how limited the player is.

Warframe is the opposite. The players are so powerful, and can do so much, that it ends up being rather shallow, and gets boring quickly. There are so few limitations, that there is very little potential for challenge, because there is almost always an easy way out. So what few limitations there are are super important, and taking away even a small one might be too much. This is why always buffing, never nerfing is a bad idea. Buffs remove limitations, while nerfs can add them.

[Alpha56]

My main complaint about this is that i really don't like the animation, i never liked it to be fair. It looks goofy, old and out of purpose (making a 360° spin when jumping), and at the same time this is clearly overused.

So i would like to see a change as well.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Alpha56

[Frenrihr89]

I think a simple solution would be to give the same speed to bullet jump & sprinting... bullet jump should be used to things like run away from enemy fire, to jump to second floors... parkour stuff etc etc.... also it would prevent a lot of  cases of tendonitis...

Edited November 8, 2019 by Frenrihr89

[Invisibleaxeman]

Space Ninjas only run when it's required for melodrama such as rushing to the aid of a fallen loved one, and then it has to be in slow motion.  All other movement should be in the air or along the walls and ceiling. 

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

5 hours ago, Alpha56 said:

My main complaint about this is that i really don't like the animation, i never liked it to be fair. It looks goofy, old and out of purpose (making a 360° spin when jumping), and at the same time this is clearly overused.

So i would like to see a change as well.

I also want 27 other animations for various things throughout the game changed because DE is here to cater to my whims.

[Gnohme]

Bullet jump is actually a really clever idea - I just wish it inherited your previous forward momentum when you executed it. I hate when I'm going faster than a bullet jump and I accidentally bullet jump too soon, therefore slowing me down. I use wallhopping constantly btw, especially once they added the Proton Pulse mod, since it encourages doing a walljump before doing another bullet jump to get ridiculous speeds.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Gnohme

[JujuHex]

No.

[CephalonSolo]

5 hours ago, Teljaxx said:

You do have to choose between different movement options. You do have to ask yourself "Do I wall run, or do I bullet jump?" When you come to an obstacle, you have to choose one method to get past it. You come to a platform you need to get up to: You can either run up the wall next to it, or you can bullet jump directly onto it. You come to a large gap, and have to get to the other side: You can either run around the edge, or you can bullet jump straight across. You cannot do both at the same time. So yes, it is a choice you have to make. And you have to make that choice extremely often.

The main reason that using wall running used to suck was not because the level design was bad, but because the old wall running was bad. It locked you into a very specific and extremely limited animation, and tended to have extremely broken physics. But the new wall running is excellent, which is why it is such a shame that almost no one ever uses it. You should try playing a few missions without ever bullet jumping. You might be surprised at just how well these tiles are designed, and how much fun it is to get through them, when you aren't rocketing through and ignoring 90% of it.

 

This part is for all the anti-nerfers: In most games, the main thing that makes them fun and engaging to play is the limitations imposed upon the players. It's really what you can't do, more than what you can do, that defines a game. This is because the challenge is about overcoming those limitations. So the more limitations you have, the more challenging, and interesting, the game can be. Just look at any good Dark Souls game. The main reason they are such deep, challenging, and engaging games is because of how limited the player is.

Warframe is the opposite. The players are so powerful, and can do so much, that it ends up being rather shallow, and gets boring quickly. There are so few limitations, that there is very little potential for challenge, because there is almost always an easy way out. So what few limitations there are are super important, and taking away even a small one might be too much. This is why always buffing, never nerfing is a bad idea. Buffs remove limitations, while nerfs can add them.

I actually really like this comment, there is not enganging gameplay if u play as efficient as u can in Warframe , u need to make yourself limitations , and that's not a good game design , of course people get really mad for rng cause that's the only way DE can balance our incredible powers to finish every content in hours , but at same time they put powers like cloud monkey or nuking all maps with 1 key , at this point better put in an ability /killall and make those grinder play their speed run game , with the killall giving a title to these guys (speedrunner) that's all u can balance the game now .

[ILOHARTA]

and here I am wishing for a stronger, longer, deadlier bullet jump...

[Gnohme]

17 minutes ago, ILOHARTA said:

and here I am wishing for a stronger, longer, deadlier bullet jump...

Same. At this point sprint and slides can reach much higher speeds depending on the frame. It can feel a little disconnected.

[Erwes]

My point is basically a bad gameplay design like one said.

The old level design is not really consistent with the new parkour system, as the enemies. But even on open world and flat ground people jump like rabbits under steroid. Because it's OP. And that's bad for the game and everything it tried.

And even if you love it, it's your right, that doesn't mean it's not a issue. As you can love an ugly girl, I won't say she's pretty if we discuss beauty (yeah that's a bit of an A****** example, but it's true)...

I can appreciate qualities in games that I don't like and inversely can criticize weakness in game that I enjoy. Ii's called having a critical point of view. If you can't I don't understand what you're doing in forums. Also it doesn't mean that you should have an opinion about everything of course. 

[FlyingDice]

Jesus #*!%ing christ OP, I genuinely never thought I'd see someone call for a return to Parkour 1.0 and the stamina bar. That system was awful and anyone who was paying the slightest attention back then knows it. Literally the only good thing was the wallrunning animation.

It's also a relic of a very different game, when Warframe was a stealth shooter, which it most blatantly isn't any more. Part of me would like to see it move back in that direction, but not if the cost is turning the movement system back into the hot mess it used to be. Zorencoptering was janky as all get-out and it was still preferable to Parkour 1.0.

[FreeWilliam]

On 2019-11-07 at 8:38 AM, Erwes said:

It is not normal that it's the fastest way to travel on a flat land rather than running.

Who cares, it's FUN!

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

4 hours ago, Gnohme said:

Same. At this point sprint and slides can reach much higher speeds depending on the frame. It can feel a little disconnected.

Oh gawd, last night I was sliding as Nezha with a teammate's Volt speed......lol woow

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

2 hours ago, Erwes said:

My point is basically a bad gameplay design like one said.

The old level design is not really consistent with the new parkour system, as the enemies. But even on open world and flat ground people jump like rabbits under steroid. Because it's OP. And that's bad for the game and everything it tried.

And even if you love it, it's your right, that doesn't mean it's not a issue. As you can love an ugly girl, I won't say she's pretty if we discuss beauty (yeah that's a bit of an A****** example, but it's true)...

I can appreciate qualities in games that I don't like and inversely can criticize weakness in game that I enjoy. Ii's called having a critical point of view. If you can't I don't understand what you're doing in forums. Also it doesn't mean that you should have an opinion about everything of course. 

On my loading screens, it tells you how to bullet jump.....

It's not like it's some secret bug that everyone's not talking about.

The premise of this game is clearly being a ninja.....a ninja in space even....in the future....A main tenet of a lot of Futuristic Sci-Fi is fast travel. Humans makes things more efficient in the future, because there's only 24hrs in a day for us. It's gets wasted quick by doing things that we used to do like....you know....dying on cross-country trek.

If you want to be slow, be slow. But do it yourself and yourself only. Welcome to "Live and let Live" Vol. 1.

[No1NParticular31]

Bullet jumping is bad? Warframe is not the game you are looking for.

The parkour system is what really sets this game apart from the competition. Start nerfing that and we may as well all go play some other looter shooter that doesn't have it.

[Mach25]

On 2019-11-07 at 9:38 AM, Erwes said:

.... It is not normal that it's the fastest way to travel on a flat land rather than running.

That's one of the reason that I slowly began playing play less and less to finally just come back for big updates....

Were are space ninja, not space grasshopper...

I said this years ago - increase base foot speed to make us actually feel like ninjas. Glad to see someone else finally talk about this - the hopping and such really makes the game feel less like a game about space ninjas and more like children gadding about, detracting from the "cool" factor that the developers were going for.

 

 

https://media.giphy.com/media/lvImTzUlOCrUQ/giphy.gif

 

The first option looks way "cooler" than the second one.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Mach25

[Joltyboi]

4 minutes ago, Mach25 said:

The first option looks way "cooler" than the second one.

bite your tongue! gimme a pogo stick in warframe right now so i can re-enact the second picture all the time!

Edited November 8, 2019 by Joltyboi

[Nezha_Rose]

Nerf bullet jumping, the players will find a more optimal movement option, nerf that and they will still find a more optimal movement option, continue to do so, and they still will.

This is because they play the way they want to play. This is something that "nerf X" threads seem to not realize. These stems from personal preferences as to what each want warframe to be, but not what the rest of the people want warframe to be. Even if you get what you want, people will *still* find ways to bypass these things for a reason. And eventually, with enough nerfs, well Im not sure if making a minority happy is worth making the majority leave.

In many many games, movement is king. This is why, yknow, speed running is a thing.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Nezha_Rose

[vegetosayajin]

wow what the actual fok... that's one of the main reasons I started to play this game and continued to play it for over 8 months.
That's one if it's main factors, one of it's characteristics that makes it original and FUN to play.
It's not the free to play, it's not the butts, it's the great movement mechanic over all. A thing that I searched for ever since I finished Prototype.
If de even considered nerfing that even slightly they will lose more than 80% of their player base in a heartbeat. 

[veryhighcholesterol]

Hahahahahahahaha How The #*!% Is Bullet Jumping Real Hahahaha Tenno Just Run To The Objective Like Tenno Play As Gauss Haha

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

12 hours ago, Teljaxx said:

But the new wall running is excellent, which is why it is such a shame that almost no one ever uses it. You should try playing a few missions without ever bullet jumping. You might be surprised at just how well these tiles are designed, and how much fun it is to get through them, when you aren't rocketing through and ignoring 90% of it.

The parkour 2.0 wallrunning also sucks. Players already criticized about the bunny hopping that is wallrunning and DE themselves said they aren't happy with it and are thinking to change it in the future (insert soon^tm). Parkour 2.0 was suppose to look like the parkour did by Excalibur in this video. The zipline change was for the better but they weren't able to implement the wall running with the time constrants.   Which also coincides with the fact that old tilesets do not fit with the current system. Yeah sure they are well designed but that's only if you take in for what they were designed for which was parkour 1.0. Currently they are just relics of a past gone by. Jupiter is the only tileset that got reworked to fit the current system. 

1 hour ago, Nezha_Rose said:

Nerf bullet jumping, the players will find a more optimal movement option, nerf that and they will still find a more optimal movement option, continue to do so, and they still will.

This is because they play the way they want to play. This is something that "nerf X" threads seem to not realize. These stems from personal preferences as to what each want warframe to be, but not what the rest of the people want warframe to be. Even if you get what you want, people will *still* find ways to bypass these things for a reason. And eventually, with enough nerfs, well Im not sure if making a minority happy is worth making the majority leave.

In many many games, movement is king. This is why, yknow, speed running is a thing.

What this thread doesn't realize is that bullet jumping was created purely because the majority of the playerbase wanted fast movement that was stemmed from the monumental use of coptering. DE realized this and gave us Parkour 2.0 and no one had a problem with it other than the bunny hopping wallrunning.

[AlfredDean]

I'd understand increasing everyone's sprint speed a little, but bullet jumping and the complex, fun, fast paced movement system are 1/2 the reason I got into the game in the first place so...

[MJ12]

12 hours ago, Teljaxx said:

You do have to choose between different movement options. You do have to ask yourself "Do I wall run, or do I bullet jump?" When you come to an obstacle, you have to choose one method to get past it. You come to a platform you need to get up to: You can either run up the wall next to it, or you can bullet jump directly onto it. You come to a large gap, and have to get to the other side: You can either run around the edge, or you can bullet jump straight across. You cannot do both at the same time. So yes, it is a choice you have to make. And you have to make that choice extremely often.

The main reason that using wall running used to suck was not because the level design was bad, but because the old wall running was bad. It locked you into a very specific and extremely limited animation, and tended to have extremely broken physics. But the new wall running is excellent, which is why it is such a shame that almost no one ever uses it. You should try playing a few missions without ever bullet jumping. You might be surprised at just how well these tiles are designed, and how much fun it is to get through them, when you aren't rocketing through and ignoring 90% of it.

You aren't forced to choose between different movement options because there is no lockout. There is never a situation where you are forced to choose to either have access to wallrunning or bullet jumping. If you wallrun this time, you can bullet jump next time. If you were actually forced to choose between different movement options, yes it would be a problem that wall-runs are meaningfully weaker than bullet-jumping. But in Warframe, having access to wall-running as an option has no opportunity cost because it is an innate, cost-free ability that you can use when you have an opportunity to benefit from it. And there are a ton of tiles with vertical obstacles too tall to scale with single bullet-jumps. In those situations, wall-runs are helpful. There are a ton of tiles where you might want to make small adjustments to your position while next to a vertical surface, where wall-runs are helpful. Just because wallruns are niche doesn't make bullet-jumps too good, when bullet-jumping was intended to be the core component of Parkour 2.0 and wallruns weren't.

Also, the existence of parkour paths for Parkour 1.0 doesn't make the tiles "well-designed," and forcing people to memorize parkour paths for hundreds of different tiles and dozens of different tilesets wouldn't get players interested in the 'good level design' that you seem to think means "if you want to move quickly, you need to know very specific shortcuts by rote, and if you don't play often enough or care enough to do that, you can just slow down and hold up the entire team." Like, I was there when Parkour 1.0 was a thing. In fact, I was there before Parkour 1.0 was a thing. Players didn't find it particularly "fun" to get through the tiles. They just stacked sprint mods so they could rush through them. Bullet-jumping is a net improvement over the prior situation, by far, because it gives players a tool with a low minimal skill requirement that at least lets them sort of keep up with rushers that is also terrain-agnostic (which is important in places like the open world maps, where you don't have these sorts of predetermined parkour paths), while still letting you improve your traversal speed if you know how all the different movement modes interact.

Bullet-jumping is absolutely fine and doesn't need nerfs. The one thing people might want to consider is letting long distance sprinting build up enough speed to be competitively fast or slightly faster than bullet-jumping over straight lines, but the reason for that isn't because bullet-jumping is too good, it's so that people who don't yet have access to K-Drives can actually traverse open world zones in a timely fashion without getting carpal tunnel syndrome.

[(XBOX)Ashen Rust]

Ninja don't run on trees or walls. That is the fantasy we have gotten use to in western culture. Real ninjas of the Koga and Iga (yes, these are real clans located in japan) were spies, not super warriors. They were/are masters of disguise and espionage. Naruto is fiction.

That being said, so is warframe (it's fictional too). Bullet jump is meant to give us mobility. Not force us, but giving the option. Not for realism, but because it's fun. Don't like it? Great, don't use it. Play your way. 

However, don't walk onto the playground, see something you don't like or agree with and then petition to have it removed. That is the definition of being selfish. In simple terms every 5 year old should understand is, don't do what you don't like. Especially, when it's optional.

It would be nice when players like the OP realise their not more important than the millions of other users who play just fine.

Edited November 8, 2019 by (XB1)Rust Plague