Discussion and Feedback on Hard Mode shown on devstream

[HolySeraphin]

I saw some people complaining about the armor/health changes in the past weeks, saying it is too easy. I guess hard/ultra hard mode is a good solution. Players that just love the power fantasy still got to be strong, and hardcore players don't need to waste 2-3 hours per run to reach lvl+200, because they will already start at 140 in the void (40+100)

[TehBoozinCrew]

1 hour ago, (PS4)ChaosTheNerd said:

Oof would be even better if the amount of traces you get increased with the level.

I mean, you could. But personally I think that's rather boring. "Thanks for shopping at hard mode, your increase in rewards is at the end of your receipt", whoopee, I guess.

An additional drop at the selection screen doesn't just give people playing hard mode a flat or % increase in rewards. Just more options to choose from. And that seems fine to me. People who like the power fantasy feel get the same amount of end mission rewards like this, while people who like it slightly more difficult or are attracted to rewards have an alternative mode that does give enhanced rewards, just not quantitatively.   

Edited May 8, 2020 by TehBoozinCrew

[Hypernaut1]

I would LOVE if not only did they raise the levels,. they unnerfed enemies too. I want to fear Bombards again, i want to stop everything and make sure that Manic doesnt get the drop on me before i kill him, i want to use my Parkour to get behind a bursa to kill it...i even want rollers to be a pain in the rear again. I want MORE than just increased levels. 

i can only dream though. 

[Zimzala]

Personally, I just love how much some people can get freaked out and worked up over a thing not yet implemented, too funny.

...

I agree the reward-loop-power issue will be tricky. IMO, they could just drop more Rivens and more rare items at hogher rates, over entirely new mods, and strike a balance somewhere, but we will see how they go about it. Every live game has to walk that tightrope.

I hope they can make it work for the people that want it.

[(PSN)thegarada]

Ultra hard mode should not be gated by hard mode. I already have done the star chart once and level 70-80 mobs are cake walk. Absolutely do not want to that again. 

Instead of plus 50 and 100, I would make streamline the leveling, so all star chart nods on hard mode and ultra hard mode are equal. I would put hard mode at level 2 sortie and ultra hard move to level 5 level liches, and it scales from there in endless. 

I know that Scott mentioned affinity should be based on enemy level. Please do not change that to lower it. 

None trophy rewards ultra hard mode:

• Credits by default (50K).
• Rotation A rewards (1 of the following): 1 relic, 900 endo, 50K credits, 600 kuva.
• Rotation B rewards (1 of the following): 900 kuva, 1,200 endo, 100K credits, riven sliver.
• Rotation C rewards (1 of the following): 2 riven slivers, 2 relics, 1,200 kuva.

Obliviously, this only covers endless missions. However, rewards should be scaled accordingly while adding kuva.

Another possibility, is to remove Nightmare missions all together, and just add the mods they offer to hard mode and ultra hard mode missions. 

Add the hard mode and ultra hard mode to junctions too. These would be really fun 😄 + good place to put trophies.

Edited May 8, 2020 by (PS4)thegarada

[redindy]

Looks fun, I just hope MR points aren't tied to it, but cosmetics are cool. I really don't want to complete the star-chart another 2 times if I don't have to.

[Krilexis]

I like the ideas you presented OP it needs more diversity. 

About the height of the Warframes they could add a Nightmare mode or game mode where everyone has the size of titania in Razorwing xD

[Amazerath]

- Nightmare Mode (Update 9.0): "Nightmare Game Mode. Are you tough enough to survive Nightmare mode?" - Patch notes (July 12 ,2013)

- Sorties (Update 18.0): "Sortie Missions are difficult endgame Missions for experienced Tenno that can be completed alone or with a group." - Patch notes (December 3, 2015)

- Arbitrations (Update 23.10): "A new type of challenge is available to players that have completed the entire Solar Map! [...] The Arbiters of Hexis are providing you with the chance to fight with something unknown to most Warframe missions: Mortality! - Patch notes (October 12, 2018)

- Hard mode (Update 28.0 ?): "HARD MODE HAS ARRIVED! IT WILL MAKE EVEN DOOM GUY PISS HIS PANTS!" - My imagination (May 8, 2020)

 

Every two or three years DE adds a hard mode to the game. And then two or three years later they forget they've already added a hard mode and add another one. I wonder if it wouldn't be better to just go back and improve the previous ones instead of adding more modes, more reward tables and more complexity to the game.

[PicoSparrowLord]

7 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I would LOVE if not only did they raise the levels,. they unnerfed enemies too. I want to fear Bombards again, i want to stop everything and make sure that Manic doesnt get the drop on me before i kill him, i want to use my Parkour to get behind a bursa to kill it...i even want rollers to be a pain in the rear again. I want MORE than just increased levels. 

i can only dream though. 

I would like to see Alternative resource sinks, like for instance (And keep in mind this is almost guaranteed to never happen) A rouge like mode where i can invest a warframe, like rhino, and a starter weapon, and if you die while doing what ever chain of missions you have to do you die and lose the weapons and warframe you were using. Would encourage budget building and not always taking the same maximum build to every mission. Never gonna happen, doesn't really sync with the game but i like the idea of it.

Edited May 8, 2020 by PicoSparrowLord

[TehBoozinCrew]

I agree with the premise but that would require a lot more work to be done on each individual mission typing and potentially tile set, and I would also like to see the difficulty scaling release before 2025. So while I like the idea I'm not convinced it would be the best use of time and assets. 

[akrid45]

Yes exactly really hope DE adds something to them and not just repeat past mistakes by just increasing enemy levels and call it a day 

Edited May 8, 2020 by akrid45

[Oreades]

waaait so they took the singular redeemable quality about liches and made it its own thing? 

RIP Kuva Liches

[Vit0Corleone]

1 minute ago, Oreades said:

waaait so they took the singular redeemable quality about liches and made it its own thing? 

RIP Kuva Liches

Pretty sure I'm missing the point. In what way does this kill liches game play?

[(PSN)Lemamori980]

I feel like the hardmode assasination node in the orokin derilect would do good to have unmade potatos as the rarest reward. it would give new life to the derilect epecialy if they made it to where you have to get a special type of nav coordinate by playing other hardmode nodes in the derilect.

[Danielw8]

7 minutes ago, Amazerath said:

- Nightmare Mode (Update 9.0): "Nightmare Game Mode. Are you tough enough to survive Nightmare mode?" - Patch notes (July 12 ,2013)

- Sorties (Update 18.0): "Sortie Missions are difficult endgame Missions for experienced Tenno that can be completed alone or with a group." - Patch notes (December 3, 2015)

- Arbitrations (Update 23.10): "A new type of challenge is available to players that have completed the entire Solar Map! [...] The Arbiters of Hexis are providing you with the chance to fight with something unknown to most Warframe missions: Mortality! - Patch notes (October 12, 2018)

- Hard mode (Update 28.0 ?): "HARD MODE HAS ARRIVED! IT WILL MAKE EVEN DOOM GUY PISS HIS PANTS!" - My imagination (May 8, 2020)

 

Every two or three years DE adds a hard mode to the game. And then two or three years later they forget they've already added a hard mode and add another one. I wonder if it wouldn't be better to just go back and improve the previous ones instead of adding more modes, more reward tables and more complexity to the game.

 

Nice info

When nightmare, sorties, arbitration came out was a real challenge in that moment ?

[(XBOX)ShonOfDawn]

Warframe has an underlaying problem with difficulty. The fact is that gameplay boils down to a damage trade (like in World of Warcraft or similar MMOs), and is not reliant on skill whatsoever; all fights are won in the arsenal, to quote another forum poster.

Challenge needs to happen in the form of engaging combat, with powerful enemies that aren't strong just because of big stats, but have mechanics that threaten the player through debuffs or other ailments (straight damage just incentivizes a tank meta, another solution could be attacks that deal fixed damage + a percentage of the player's hp as finisher, so every frame can be threatened but tanks still have advantage because they can shrug off most of the direct damage) that are still telegraphed and avoidable by paying attention and using mobility, and have specific ways that allow you to dispatch them in an efficient manner (i.e. Nox's headshot vulnerability: you can still brute force him, but there's a better way that promotes skillful play). A combat system that rewards reflexes, enemy knowledge and moment to moment decision making is what ultimately drives challenge. Yes, anything below level 60 is such a joke that this change is surely welcome, but core changes still need to happen.

[SocialFox]

3 minutes ago, Danielw8 said:

 

Nice info

When nightmare, sorties, arbitration came out was a real challenge in that moment ?

I have to imagine they were, so the issue isn't that they forgot, it's that we outgrew them and need something new, just like old video games.

Edited May 8, 2020 by SocialFox

[kyori]

People will complain again once they get all the reward. So this is a neverending cycle.

[(PSN)M82BFG]

I really can not wait for this to hit. I can currently solo all PvE in the game... My biggest challenge currently is getting the resources for my dojo and actually decorating my dojo.

[Oreades]

2 minutes ago, Vit0Corleone said:

Pretty sure I'm missing the point. In what way does this kill liches game play?

Cause the only reason I enjoyed/bothered with the liches was for the boost in enemy level. Everything else in that system is just an unfun slog. From getting the right weapon to that stupid "we're gonna make you hate your lich so much you're gonna love it" BS. 

Now I can just jump to the more difficult missions without needing to engage with all the dregs of that accursed system. 

[Nichivo]

It was one of the best Dev Streams I have seen in ages, and I watched it twice. More challenge is more than welcome, and I for one haven't been this excited about something coming to warframe in a long time. Why? Because usually we get 3-6 months of time to play something before it gets the difficulty lowered because of people whining. 

If this is upsetting to anyone.Then don't play hardmode. Why can't people let us endurance runners, and solo artist have even one thing, without complaining about it not being easy enough for them to skate through. Anything that lowers the time it takes getting to things not being a cake walk in a mission is alright by me.😁

[NekroArts]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)Lemamori980 said:

I feel like the hardmode assasination node in the orokin derilect would do good to have unmade potatos as the rarest reward. it would give new life to the derilect epecialy if they made it to where you have to get a special type of nav coordinate by playing other hardmode nodes in the derilect.

If your view of hard mode is the same as Sortie Lephantis I'm going to have to say no. Potatoes are one of the most useful items and we already have multiple ways of getting them for free. Putting them in a place that can be repeatedly farm is can break the balance of get-for-free and incentive-to-pay. Lephantis is tanky, but not hard.

[Hypernaut1]

Maybe they could have it scale endlessly. Then we compete with ourselves or each other to see how many levels of the star chart we can go. 

I want rewards, but the kind of players that think this NEEDS rewards will be the same players complaining on forum about it being too hard or cheesy, and just bringing general toxicity about it.

Please stay away if you dont find it fun. Its not a job, no need to rage about it.  I want it to be as optional as they can make it. 

Edited May 8, 2020 by Hypernaut1

[(PSN)Derio23]

I agree the difficulty should come from the gameplay not the level of the enemies.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)M82BFG said:

I can currently solo all PvE in the game...

And it should stay that way. Level 200 enemies aren't a big deal anymore for our frames, so breezing through hardmode will be a... well, it won't be a slog. What I don't like is another confirmation that DE regards enemy level as challenge.