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Discussion and Feedback on Hard Mode shown on devstream


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On the latest Devstream DE showed off a basic mockup and discussed what a "hard mode" of the game might be and look like. In short, expect enemy starting levels to be 50+ from base at "hard", and 100+ from base at "ultra hard". Sounds well enough for a quick and dirty way of getting higher level enemies to the players faster than running an endless mission for an hour. But what about the rewards for doing such missions?

What if the rewards for running “hard” and “ultra hard” missions were not quantitative increases, or single grab and done items, but qualitative benefits? Well, it would certainly help ensure the resource economy in this game doesn’t get even further exasperated, and that's its not just a one and done content island. But you might be wondering, how do you qualitatively increase mission rewards? 

Well, I can't answer that for every mission type. But many mission types operate on an AABC type reward rotation, and I’ll pose this question: What if “hard” mode ran on an ABC rotation instead? Rotation B and C rewards are often the most enticing or valuable, so why not let them appear more often. As well, why not have “ultra hard” run a BC rotation instead? Just like that we’ve qualitatively increased the reward pool without quantitatively giving out more rewards. 

So how might this work with relics, if they get “hard” and “ultra hard” options as well?  They dont follow typical reward pools rules. 

One option that comes to mind for me is that when selecting your relic reward at the end game screen/selection screen, what if an additional unvaulted relic was randomly rolled alongside all the available options? So a solo player would see their reward from their chosen key, as well as a single randomized reward from all unvaulted keys. A team of four would see all four of their rewards from each of their respective keys plus an additional roll. While we’re at it why not make “ultra hard” give two additional rolls to choose from. This would give players a broader quantity of items to choose from as their reward, without just giving out additional rewards. 

I dont promise that these ideas are perfect by any means, and I'm sure there are better qualitative reward solutions out there, but I hope they can help illustrate what qualitative reward increases might be like, and that quantitative or unique rewards don't need to be the end all be all regarding difficulty rewards scaling. 
 

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One way to do this is say advanced forces have moved into the area. The nightwatch troops are under used. Add more unit types that are really hard to deal with(not via health , shields, or armor) to regular missions but really rare but will actually regularly spawn in those. Units that actually USE squad tactics too. A unit type above an Eximus. And as for the new grenade types... Null grenades, mag grenades, rad grenades, or tether grenades. Bursa units already have tethers. If there was a purely squad support unit to heal others. Id be Have their spawns scale like the sentient do on lua. The Corpus already have so many under used proxy units, the Grineer have I miss the days way back when a screen flicker meant I was about to have to really fight(stalker, G3, Zenuka) now screen flick means 10 second delay to sprint threw enemy corpses. I mean... Yeah. I can see a LOT of ways this could be good. It does have to be a little more than JUST extra armor, health, and damage.

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7 minutes ago, Bronjun said:

Put enough kuva inside and I'll bite. 

I knew this was coming. Kuva and Void Traces are the only damn resources in the game that I think truly have an endless sink to them. But while Void Traces are intricately attached to relics, Kuva is just its own thing. It could definitely stand to see higher reward quantities from rewards and Requiem missions.

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My question is do we really need the whole star chart to be "harder" versions of the base star chart? Like once you play a harder hijack once, are you going to really bother playing it again unless the rewards are way way way better.

Or would it be better and more useful to just have some new nodes made or convert some nodes to be the harder ones. Like take the Dark Sector idea and make new faction version names (Corpus Research Lab, Grineer Clone facility) which would then

  1. Explain why the enemies are stronger
  2. Could add additional interesting lore to the game
  3. Could be used to add extra modifiers to the mission to make them more challenging rather than just "harder"
  4. Not dilute the MM for most of the star chart
  5. Not have the "hard" mode be another content layer that will function like an island in some regards.

You could then also have unique drop tables or enemies, you probably have enough planets that each of the endless and like an exterminate for each faction but not need to have most of them just dead in terms of MM.  Plus the star chart is getting more and more cluttered in terms of things that could stack up on a single node this would at least not just have another layer of extra clicks on the whole star chart and make the harder missions feel better as they are new not just same thing but with a higher level. 

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Rare resources being more common, more relics per rotation ( a 3 bundle?), kuva, riven fragment, longer focus timer, forma blueprints, universal medallions mroe common... A lot of thngs comes to my mind, but I think we all agree on the fact that a high tier should compensate with high rewards to be considered endgame. Otherwise would be the same as go modless to the regular starchart.

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Just now, xHeretic said:

 I think we all agree on the fact that a high tier should compensate with high rewards to be considered endgame. Otherwise would be the same as go modless to the regular starchart.

I definitely agree. I just wanted to cultivate the thought that quantitatively scaling rewards don't need to be the only way to entice players. They're the most obvious, but I think the system can go deeper than just additional stuff.

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Maybe it’s a good time to introduce Umbra Forma Blueprint to the drop table as a rare reward (<5% chance). Before you scream “POWAH CREEP” we can already fit all 3 Umbra Mods by polarizing the other 6 slots we have. Umbra Forma is there to allow some flexibility and we can’t wait once every 6 months for 1.

For other stuff I can think of Universal Medallions, Radiant Relics, Kuva, Void Traces, Large Credit Caches (150k or more), 5x Ayatan Amber Stars, Built Fieldron, Detonite Injectors, Mutagen Mass.

 

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2 hours ago, Oreades said:

waaait so they took the singular redeemable quality about liches and made it its own thing? 

RIP Kuva Liches

I think this would be a good opportunity to combine these two things.

I guess my suggestions is simply:

  • Make the Kuva Lich system into the “hard mode” / “very hard mode” system 
  • Get rid of the foothold mechanic
  • If you have a Kuva Lich stalking you, then “hard mode”:
    • Kuva Thralls spawn on all “hard mode” / “very hard mode” Grineer missions
    • Kuva Lich basically replaces Stalker / Grustrag / Vor / Syndicate / Zenuka spawns (did I miss one?)
    • Kuva Lich steals your stuff
    • Better mission rewards, as Scott mentioned in the Devstream
  • If you don’t have a Kuva Lich stalking you, then “hard mode”:
    • You get those annoying spawns that I’ve already farmed to death (but you might still want them!) 
    • Better mission rewards, as Scott mentioned in the Devstream

For me I think this solves the “problem” that I see that Kuva Liches is another content island when I think it would work better if it was just a end-game version of the Stalker mechanic while I do other star chart content.

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10 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

Prepare for calls of "Too hard" and "Think of the new players" and "Unfair for the non META players".

I dont care about that kind of complaints. Sorry for being brutally honest.

10 hours ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing said:

Heyo.

First off, I would like to say that the idea of a Hard Mode Starchart is amazing, and I thank DE for finally taking that idea into consideration.

Here's the thing I'm worried about. Difficulty, in this instance, seems to be more level-based than it is actually gameplay-based.

Sure, it's a lot easier to slap 50 levels on a Lancer and call it a day, but we're talking about a game where Tenno could one-shot the kneecaps off of an open-world Sentient ZOMBIE that's TEN FEET TALL.

Instead, I was wondering if the objectives themselves could also be scaled.

For example:

  • Higher-level Capture missions could have players Capture more than one VIP from across the map. You know how in Spy missions that if you lose all 3 data terminals, you lose the mission? Something like that.
  • Higher-level Exterminate missions will have a lot more miniboss-type enemies thrown around when a certain percentage of enemies is killed (like a Lynx or Hyena(s) in a Corpus mission)
  • Higher-level Defense missions could have you defend several objectives at the same time (imagine a gamemode where there's a platoon of civilians that the Tenno are going to try and defend)
  • Higher-level Mobile Defense missions could act like Disruption where during time thresholds (3 minute defense, every 1 minute, for example), there's a Demolisher or Demolyst (i forget the name) that takes huge chunks out of the terminal's health

Just food for thought.

I love you.

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6 hours ago, XzWasPzX said:

-snip-

You may not care.

But DE does. 

And only one of those can alter the game's systems.

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Justo ahora, Kaotyke dijo:

You may not care.

But DE does. 

And only one of those can alter the game's systems.

casuals have their niche, its time for the vets to have its own, dont you? 

 

 

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I get Steve's excitement to push things out, but I'd rather you guys test it out on your shiny new semi-public test cluster for a weekend or so, gather some feedback, iterate and then ship it.

We'll be getting Glassmaker next week after all, so there will be a content drop either way. Looking forward to it, regardless.

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Wait, people want tangible rewards? I thought that people just wanted a hardmode to separate then from casuals /s

Bu seriously, if you want this mode not be ruined by ''casuals'', don't ask for rewards like Umbra formas, more rare mods, etc. 

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Yes, I second this notion. I love the idea of harder nodes, but I think some more thought can be put into it. Such as (I am still going to go with this suggestion) an actual mission slider with scaled up rewards up to a maximum perhaps (because I think if you accounted for things scaling up to lvl 9999 would be very ridiculous). As for how matchmaking would work, I commented in another thread that maybe you could set a "maximum mission level" on your party options that you are willing to join and you can join that one and any sessions below that level, missions locking after objectives are partially completed just like previously. Hard mode and ultra hard mode are going to split up the community matchmaking REGARDLESS, so making a downscaling option like this would be relatively appropriate and doable I'd think?

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Remember Kuva Lich and Railjack, Steve. Don’t pull it like that ever again. You have the PTC, use it wisely. First impressions are always important.

1 minute ago, (PS4)Ragology said:

Aren't they just raising enemy levels? What could possibly go wrong?

I think the OP meant Rewards. They should do a PTC regarding that so the mode is worth our time.

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hace 51 minutos, TehBoozinCrew dijo:

I knew this was coming. Kuva and Void Traces are the only damn resources in the game that I think truly have an endless sink to them. But while Void Traces are intricately attached to relics, Kuva is just its own thing. It could definitely stand to see higher reward quantities from rewards and Requiem missions.

+1% bonus for any aspect of a warframe, capped to +40%

You have a chance to earn a +1% bonus which can be assigned to any stat of the warframe you choose, and increases permamently the stat. Max bonus per warframe is +40%.

Efficiency, Duration, Range, Strength, u know 😉

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1 minute ago, (PS4)Ragology said:

Aren't they just raising enemy levels? What could possibly go wrong?

I just want the Reward structure of it to be decent and for any glaring flaws to get caught before it goes live. Steve's "lets do this like 2015, release and then get feedback" is the exact opposite of what this Community has been asking for the past few months (to a year). I'd rather have to wait a week instead of going over another "de bad" circlejirk.

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7 minutes ago, LupoDWolf said:

Bu seriously, if you want this mode not be ruined by ''casuals'', don't ask for rewards like Umbra formas, more rare mods, etc. 

Casuals will just use the meta to negate that. See Arbitration where Tank Frames made the mode a big joke. It won’t lock them out.

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While I agree with adding continuously harder enemies into the game for fun, having higher xp yield from enemies might not be the best idea. This gives incentive for even more speedrunning and speedleveling equipment, one which us players have well enough methods to do so (Hydron, ESO, etc.).

What might happen is that veterans may offer taxis to these new ultra-hard nodes. This may be indicative of an altruistic playerbase, which is great, but this might trivialize the other rewards. Having an achievement or an emblem of some sorts that shows completion of the mode may come to mean nothing, thus lowering the lifespan of this feature.

I noticed this with Diablo 3, where most of the players would ask to be carried. Again, veterans are altruistic enough to carry them, since it is inconsequential to their own gameplay, but new players no longer have to play/only have to play minimally to earn their rewards and experience.

I suggest that the xp yield should remain the same (or taper off like an S curve), but other rewards such as higher resource yield or anything that might have been on the drawing board should be encouraged.

 

tl;dr: We already have enough xp farms and have sufficient xp yield, no need to give even more.

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There's plenty of planets and plenty of nodes, so hopefully we don't get too limited a pool of rewards.

Personally I really hope we get at least 1 of each faction node that has just a dedicated table of radiant relics of one era. I want (Radiant) Lith relics, I have a choice of a Corpus, Grineer or Infested node, preferably endless and not the same mission type.

Obviously I don't think those should be the go-to rewards, there should be much better stuff on most nodes, but it would really be a massive boost to the game if a new prime comes out and I don't have to suffer through nodes like Xini dropping MAGAZINE SLIP just to try to get the relics I want. Relics are always going to be relevant regardless of your point in the game.

Other than that, I hope something like Exilus Forma finally gets made.

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7 minutes ago, LupoDWolf said:

Bu seriously, if you want this mode not be ruined by ''casuals'', don't ask for rewards like Umbra formas, more rare mods, etc. 

Why not? Good rewards from hard rewards is perfectly acceptable. The problem you are thinking of boils down to DE not sticking to their guns. Missions can absolutely be hard and reward Umbral Forma in a rare, but consistent manner.

In order for a players time to be respected, DE has to actually design concrete drop chances and barely change them if at all. However, in the last few years, I feel like that is a hopeless request.

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3 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Casuals  everyone will just use the meta to negate that. See Arbitration where Tank Frames made the mode a big joke. It won’t lock them out.

Like I said, if it gives farmable reward, the mode will end like Arbitrations. If people really want a hard mode just to be hard and test things, ir should not give way desirable rewards

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