Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first

[Felsagger]

7 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

I mean... it depends on your build and what you are doing.

 

 

I'm MR 28 near 29 in PS4. Rarely I play with that dumb frame. Makes a lot of things way too easy. Anyone can go to overframe.gg or copy paste any recent build out there following flashy youtubers, partners and streamers in the net. 

 

This game needs a forma simulator for any frame. At least people can play and test things on the go coming with newer fresh builds other than waiting for those big internet cows plug an 'interesting build' for people to copy paste and parrot about. 

 

 

I'm tired of that crap. 

Edited May 18, 2020 by Felsagger

[phoenix1992]

2 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

I'm tired of that crap. 

This sounds like really high amount of frustration, yet you dodged my main question - What do you play and what sort of challenge do you expect?
 

[Xaero]

58 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Clearly you haven't been taking that much notice... but then excalibur is the poster child for warframe so...

So...?

58 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Ultimately I don't want a game that is little better than any other point and shoot game (which in most cases are far better than warframe at that aspect of the game).

You won't have to point and shoot, just, instead of standing in one spot, run around and attack enemies with abilities.

58 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Toning abilities down to suit YOUR preferences would ruin the essence of what brought many of us into the game, the abilities are basically the only unique part of warframe.

Didn't I say it benefits gameplay overall? My preferences don't matter.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Xaero

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

if the enemy ai were a bit more tactical and defensive it could in theory countermand our cc or protect groups behind ehavy shields so its less effective 

in combat scenarios the problem is most AI work in games following a programed logic step sequence

a better implementation is a working memory as well as adapting to situations which isnt as hard

fear had the right idea wit this and even though the enemies are cannon fodder, the behavior and action immersion made the game play in combat really enjoyable 

http://alumni.media.mit.edu/~jorkin/gdc2006_orkin_jeff_fear.pdf

[LSG501]

8 minutes ago, Xaero said:

Didn't I say it benefits gameplay overall? My preferences don't matter.

But not everyone will agree that it will benefit gameplay overall, it is just YOUR opinion that it will.  I don't think it will for example.

[Felsagger]

7 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

This sounds like really high amount of frustration, yet you dodged my main question - What do you play and what sort of challenge do you expect?
 

Sometimes I go 8 forma on War Frame, Weapons and max out Tenno skill tree just for fun. If not I'm playing Titan Fall 2, Spider Man, Batman Arkham Knight or Over Watch.  

 

In War Frame I go for the classical build that does the job without pressing too much on particular attributes on the frames. I focus more on mobility, reloading, more ammo and energy efficiency. Don't depend on 'ability spamming'. Games like Titan Fall 2 and Over Watch teaches you how to use your 'utilities' or 'abilities' at the right time. That's why good Pharahs are deadly and game changers in Over Watch. The same apply to Widow Makers. Good Winstons are always threatening on match switches when a Mercy backs them up. 

 

However I store known builds when I go cooperatively. I see War Frame the same way as Over Watch. I try to role play a War Frame on a team or at least be a resource like an EV trinity or a tactical Slow Nova when needed. I tend to see this game as a team based cooperative tactical game. 

And yes War Frames are Over Watch characters too, IMO. 

This is an example of a cooperative mission with some situational events. Obviously War Frame doesn't need to follow this scheme. This is just an example. 

 

In War Frame I don't expect any challenge. War Frame is a game oriented towards Gear not on skill. Over Watch is skill based completely but character role is fundamental. My vision of War Frame doesn't get in the middle with other players. When they call me for some tasks, I ask them what you want to do or what you want to achieve. According to that, I open my library of frames and select the best one helping my team mate. 

 

What frustrates me is the lack on obvious things like a forma frame/ weapon simulator instead of pushing trials and error on metas that constantly changes downgrading gears and frames. At least a forma simulator and simulacrum testing can give me the frame I want to build and the result I want to search instead of wasting time doing redundancy. 

 

[Jhura]

OK I want to just add something here: nerfing guns or warframes directly will just add another layer of problems.

 

What I mean by this is, that if warframes and weapons are nerfed to the point that things become "hard" then it will only spur on a more enforced mod meta and to an extent certain warframe and weapon meta.

 

The real culprit in this scenario is the mod system and how it has been a power creep balancing nightmare. This was even more exacerbated with the thoughtless introduction of rivers and will continue to get worse.

 

The problem here is all damage is tied to the mod system, therefore, you will always build for highest damage and use the weapons and frames that can abuse these mods the most. If they want to balance and offer challenge they would need to fundamentally change the mod system where it was divorced from just straight power upgrades and focused on utility. This way, weapons and frames would have a balancable upper limit.

 

What do I mean? This would mean that any mod that was just a stat increase and didn't enforce a "modified" playtime would need to be removed. Another system, like re-forging weapons and frames to bump base stats and damage up, would need to be added so the stat growth could be more accurately controlled. This would allow DE to properly balance enemies at all levels of play as there would be a metric of what a tennis should be capable of at each level and an upper limit that they reach.

 

But what about mods? These would need to be purely utility, change-of-use, and modified function. Mods like the Aero set and the augments for example. This way there is no variable power based on slotted mods, it changes to variations of playstyle and functionality

 

If those changes were done then DE could balance weapons and frames and their growth for future and current content and have levels varying levels of difficulty. As the power creep stands, there is little they can do as it become more a removal of prayer agency to make a challenge or only certain frames who can abuse the current system excel; and on to that the power discrepancies between same weapon with and without rivers and you have the balancing nightmare that we are in.

 

This would be a big change to Warframe and while I would support (even though I have a bunch of time and resources sunk into the current mod system) DE of they chose to pursue this path, I know many other tenno would be very against such changes, even if appropriate compensation were given during the changeover. 

 

So, in short, there are ways to balance and create challenge but DE has designed themselves into a corner and it would be quite hard for them to fix the things to give players appropriate challenges and harder content without fixing core aspects of the game.

[(XBOX)x ARTaco x]

27 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

This game needs a forma simulator for any frame. At least people can play and test things on the go coming with newer fresh builds other than waiting for those big internet cows plug an 'interesting build' for people to copy paste and parrot about. 

that's an awesome idea. looks so goofy when i have a frame/weapon with 15+ forma in it. although that's a whole buncha porkin cells/forma wait time they'd avoid so it won't happen til they offset that with more profits prolly

[Xaero]

15 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

But not everyone will agree that it will benefit gameplay overall, it is just YOUR opinion that it will.  I don't think it will for example.

Not everyone will agree, but none of them will give any valid arguments. I can understand why some people would be against that though. If you play a game with cheats for too long it will be very difficult to play it fair later.

[Xaero]

5 minutes ago, Jhura said:

OK I want to just add something here: nerfing guns or warframes directly will just add another layer of problems.

Depends. What problems could restricting all AoE stuff from affecting enemies behind walls and obstacles possible create?

[LSG501]

25 minutes ago, Xaero said:

Not everyone will agree, but none of them will give any valid arguments. I can understand why some people would be against that though. If you play a game with cheats for too long it will be very difficult to play it fair later.

I can give a valid reason why to not remove it.... people enjoy using them, that's a valid reason whether you agree or not... you can't term an ability natively in the game as a cheat, that was a conscious decision by DE to add these types of abilities and there will be a LOT of complaints, assuming they just don't leave, if they're changed to the way you're suggesting.

There's also the fact that nerfing aoe abilities to be blocked by walls would also affect frames like nova and nyx (amongst others)... you know the frames that allow us to speed up defence or slow down interception etc.  And you can't just go about selectively allowing some while not allowing others.

[MagPrime]

2 hours ago, RamonLeeYJ said:

@MagPrime please obliterate this person.

I'm waiting for a good rad Sortie, sorry, it's gonna be a minute. 

[Xaero]

8 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

I can give a valid reason why to not remove it.... people enjoy using them, that's a valid reason whether you agree or not...

Nah, people hate it. If they were happy with it, it wouldn't be frequently brought up on forums.

10 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

you can't term an ability natively in the game as a cheat, that was a conscious decision by DE to add these types of abilities

I'm not calling AoE stuff in Warframe "cheats". Though "legitimate cheats" fits. It doesn't really matter as long as the process is the same.

12 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

and there will be a LOT of complaints, assuming they just don't leave, if they're changed to the way you're suggesting.

That's fine. Complaints about AoE being almighty will be replaced with complaints about AoE not being almighty. But gameplay wins. And these complaints will be temporary. Because no one initially expects AoE stuff to ignore walls and obstacles. It's common logic.

17 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

There's also the fact that nerfing aoe abilities to be blocked by walls would also affect frames like nova and nyx (amongst others)... you know the frames that allow us to speed up defence or slow down interception etc. 

I don't see a problem. Are we in a hurry?

18 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

And you can't just go about selectively allowing some while not allowing others.

No need to. All AoE stuff should be treated the same way. That includes enemy auras and attacks too btw.

[Aldain]

9 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

I'm waiting for a good rad Sortie, sorry, it's gonna be a minute. 

Grab a Radiation Kuva Lich, that'll learn em.

[MagPrime]

9 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Grab a Radiation Kuva Lich, that'll learn em.

No but it would be a bit too satisfying. 

[(PSN)Silverback73]

22 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

Good. Let's drop this charade then and let this be the wonderful power fantasy that it is instead of trying to "balance" it and take all the fun out in the process.

Yes this , AND...Pablo is looking at the wrong side of the equation.

Nerfing the power fantasy is the EASY way out, and brand suicide.

Making enemies more dynamic is the REAL next step that needs to be taken, and NOT simply nerfing us or adding “x” levels to the same old enemies, or gating/giving immunity.

If you are going to tell me the Game’s Engine or code or...etc, etc can’t do this, then it’s time to look to the Next Gen version of Warframe.

[rodzzila]

Even after all the nerfs, balancing and what not, can DE actually make a competent and challenging, but fair AI? Can we stop pretending or asking for Warframe to be a completely different game than it actually is? 

[DeMonkey]

9 minutes ago, rodzzila said:

Can we stop pretending or asking for Warframe to be a completely different game than it actually is?

Man, imagine where Warframe would be if we told people that years ago, back when it was something entirely different to what it is now.

Point being, games change, this game changed and will continue to change. What exactly do you think posts like this accomplish?

[Aldain]

8 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Man, imagine where Warframe would be if we told people that years ago, back when it was something entirely different to what it is now.

I don't even know what Warframe currently is supposed to be right now to be honest.

Not sure if that's a good or bad thing, but it is a thing.

[Felsagger]

8 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Man, imagine where Warframe would be if we told people that years ago, back when it was something entirely different to what it is now.

Point being, games change, this game changed and will continue to change. What exactly do you think posts like this accomplish?

 

Put an end to Sars-CoV 2? Maybe that. Well I'll be fine with that. ^^

[DeMonkey]

4 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I don't even know what Warframe currently is supposed to be right now to be honest.

Not sure if that's a good or bad thing, but it is a thing.

We all know what it is. It's the first foray into space ninja themed cookie clicker dress up games.

For such a niche market though, DE have done really well for themselves. I guess that's why Anthem failed, Bioware actually 'tried' to make it into a game, and nobody wants that.

^{Shots fired.} 

Spoiler

I wonder, do I need to tell people I'm not entirely serious?

[Aldain]

3 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Spoiler

I wonder, do I need to tell people I'm not entirely serious?

 

Spoiler

Trust me, you do, I have to do these disclaimers so often that it has become second nature

 

Edited May 18, 2020 by Aldain

[Corvid]

34 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Making enemies more dynamic is the REAL next step that needs to be taken, and NOT simply nerfing us or adding “x” levels to the same old enemies, or gating/giving immunity.

Aaand we're right back to the start. How does a dynamic AI make any difference if it's switched off or killed before it ever gets the chance to see the player?

[Kaotyke]

1 minute ago, Corvid said:

Aaand we're right back to the start. How does a dynamic AI make any difference if it's switched off or killed before it ever gets the chance to see the player?

And the cicle continues...

Btw, how many times has this thread been cleaned? I think this is the 2 time I've been in page 17.

[Mos-Eisley]

7 hours ago, Felsagger said:

War Frame is not the place for a challenge. War Frames are designed in a way that even the smarter A.I. gets hampered due to War Frame abilities. Do I seek challenge here? No. 

This is a 3D fashion beauty pageant captura scene digital Pokemon toy collection where I play with the intention of having fun socializing about anything in a conversation. Is nothing more than that. 

War Frame is not oriented towards high end difficulty. Asking that is the same as begging for downgrades on the war frame abilities, weapons and tenno. I don't ask for hard difficulty in here. 

 

Warframe at one time was challenging, thought not overly so, and was enjoyable. It certainly wasn't a game where the sole reason for playing was to collect the "stuff" though it unfortunately evolved into that. 

I don't think there is anyone that is asking for high end difficulty...just something that is challenging.