Will Hardmode Be Hard Enough?

[Traumtulpe]

I am looking forward to the addition of Hardmode to the game, but I fear it may be too easy still.

Best as I can tell, Hardmode merely increase the enemy level by 100 - which is not sufficient. Plus, supposedly I will be forced to play through the entire map again with enemy level +50 to even get there, which is just boring (might be 120/60, but it's all the same).

Look, sorties are up to level 100 with special modifiers - and provide no challenge whatsoever anymore.

I'd suggest Hardmode to be +100 by default, one mission for each game mode at any time (to avoid splitting players across the whole map) - but here is where the fun starts: Each player chooses handicaps from a list, upon which any special rewards are balanced. More/more severe handicaps equal more rewards (with diminishing returns).

Because of diminishing returns, you can take a few minor handicaps and still get reasonable rewards. But if your gear supports it you can also go crazy and take them all, for some benefit. Ideally though, these handicaps would be so plentiful (and severe) that you cannot actually take all of them.

The high end on these handicaps has to exceed the penalties of Dragon Keys (I tried an Arbitration with those), plus they should be more varied.

Any thoughts? I hope most people don't think the currently expected implementation of Hardmode is fine as is.

 

 

[(PSN)Onder6099]

I just hope that you will not be the first who will complain about how hard the Modes are.

[Traumtulpe]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

I just hope that you will not be the first who will complain about how hard the Modes are.

I don't think you have to worry about that.

[DeMonkey]

Level 9999 is doable last I checked, so probably not.

[Kainosh]

I think DE must develop harder versions of existing mission types.  

Example:

Defense + 

Defense mode with more "Tower defense" features.    Bigger map.   Several Demo units per wave. Some extra units that attack Objective from Range.  

Some Defense breaker units that will nullify all Defensive skills if not taken down in time.

 

You don't even need high level for this to be challenging. 

[Edit]

Demo units can take about 1/4 of Objective HP per detonation...   Will make Healers useful for when you miss one for whatever tactical reasons.

Edited May 28, 2020 by Kainosh

[Orakan]

As long as it will give decent rewards for veterans without giving burnout syndrome it will be enough. Besides we can always do endurance runs but to my opinion like in every other arpg endless missions should have scaling rewards

[Aldain]

Short answer: Probably not.

Longer answer: There's no point to cranking up the levels since the overall gameplay of Warframe won't change much no matter the level, the only thing that level increases will do is what it always does, narrow the meta down to a small selection of "viable" and leave all the supposed variety the game has as MR fodder.

[Zimzala]

Nope.

The 'challenge content' crowd is never, ever, satisfied for longer then it takes to beat the content and post the formula, my guess with HM, less than an hour.

It's folly for anyone involved to think that any game company can appease this group, I have not seen one capable yet, been playing eltronic games since Pong.

I am hoping it adds something that players like and want, but there is no way it will be 'hard enough' for the forum crowd I have seen post here, it's not possible to actually please them, IMO.

New modes and stuff are awesome, though. 🙂 

[Traumtulpe]

3 minutes ago, Orakan said:

Besides we can always do endurance runs

Isn't that a really poor excuse? People who want some challenge, to make good use of the gear they put together, don't necessarily want to play the same mission for several hours (with most of it being boring).

Plus then you'd have to play solo, or find 3 more people that like to wait for 2 hours until the fun starts.

[General-Pacman]

It will probably not be hard enough, but it will still be better than nothing. I just hope DE doesn't leave it as the final solution to the lack of challenging content.

Edited May 28, 2020 by General-Pacman

[Jarriaga]

They will not be hard enough if we go strictly by the only thing DE said they'll do: +50 to hard and +100 to ultra hard. 

While this will be harder than what we have, it is not hard enough on it's own in a vacuum.

I've already made my peace about it. Better than nothing at this point; that's how low the bar is.

Edited May 28, 2020 by Jarriaga

[(XBOX)ShonOfDawn]

8 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Short answer: Probably not.

Longer answer: There's no point to cranking up the levels since the overall gameplay of Warframe won't change much no matter the level, the only thing that level increases will do is what it always does, narrow the meta down to a small selection of "viable" and leave all the supposed variety the game has as MR fodder.

Precisely.

[(PSN)Kakurine2]

Hardcore folks will never be happy. Its always the same for any game.

Thus why i play for stress relief not challenge.

Unless hardmode gives us a worth while reward i won't bother with it.

Edited May 28, 2020 by (PS4)Kakurine2

[(PSN)Deeceem]

I can't wait for MR5s in Ultra Hard Hydron.

With the infos given I'll play it for the possible MR affecting and/or unique rewards. Other than that maybe to level and if the mentioned resource boost affects Kuva I'll play missions that give Kuva. I can't think of anything else.

Edited May 28, 2020 by (PS4)Deeceem

[(PSN)Kakurine2]

Only reason i would bother with it is for kuva, endo, potatoes, skins, dpiffy weapons, armor atatchments, sysndanas, and forma.

Its nice de is doing it. But not really something the average player is going to bother with.

 

[trst]

Certainly not as the mechanics and builds we have at our disposal makes enemy level a completely irrelevant stat. It will however give builds put together with more thought than the auto install function a bit more purpose though.

Difficulty for the players who're trying to fully utilize the tools at our disposal (which isn't that the whole point of having them in the first place?) can only come from nerfing the very tools we're using and/or by employing mechanical changes to make their overpowered aspects no longer trivialize content. Increasing enemy levels doesn't even attempt to accomplish this.

[carrymaker]

nope

[Magus_Tahir]

42 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Any thoughts? I hope most people don't think the currently expected implementation of Hardmode is fine as is.

There seems to be many misconceptions running around, and I really blame all the discussions going on concerning difficulty both here and in many other places Youtube, and Discords.

The Hard Mode/Ultra Hard mode that is coming is a bare bones basic change on the Star Map that simply lets you start at higher mob levels which is to serve two purposes at launch.

1. To give Content Creators a live environment to test builds instead of the Simulacrum so they can show off the game while doing it. And with higher enemy levels than the Simulacrum can provide.
2. A Test, simply a test to gauge usage and gather data. Its a new concept for DE and in order to move it forward they will need a combination of feedback, and internal data so they know what direction to take it in. 

Between Pablo, and Scotts interviews in their respective podcasts I am confident that a equitable solution will be found and a pathway to new game modes will be forged. That said, I do think players are over hyping this a tad and expecting too much, and it is a portion of the players who are setting themselves up for failure in that regard. When the system is setup and its initial version is shipped I will judge it then. Make no mistake to those who can do lvl 9999 endurance runs this won't be a "Hard" mode. 

[Methanoid]

enough?  who cares....   an actual improvement after all these years?  yes please...

[Peter]

I remember when the forum cryed so hard about how hard is fortuna when it was released.

Arbitration should be more difficult and challenging, and with so much crying they put revive on it.

You guys aren't prepared to hard/ultra anyway and will cry until they destroy it in same way.

I wouldn't be surprised if it happened again.

 

[MPonder]

Star chart missions will never be hard

[BloodKitten]

level 500+ is doable since the armor scaling was nerfed (and tryhards can do alot higher then that and claim it's too easy) nothing in the game is hard unless it something that requier more skill then pure damage/cheese builds.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

if you're nuking Sorties and felt Scarlet Spear was too easy towards the end of the run, then no, you're probably at that meta level where nothing will ever be hard enough without you getting nerfed: something Which Pablo himself said has to be taken into account before any major reworks.

my main concern is them being more rewarding; if the rewards don't match the increase in difficulty, it's dead on arrival, simple as that. 

[(PSN)Kakurine2]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

my main concern is them being more rewarding; if the rewards don't match the increase in difficulty, it's dead on arrival, simple as that. 

Will probably be doa. Because increased exp and resources we already have are not worthwhile.

Even if it rewards other stuff. The rewards will only be good for a time. I don't see any reason for most players to spam the hard mode map.

Edited May 28, 2020 by (PS4)Kakurine2

[Zimzala]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Kakurine2 said:

Will probably be doa. Because increased exp and resources we already have are not worthwhile.

Even if it rewards other stuff. The rewards will only be good for a time. I don't see any reason for most players to spam the hard mode map.

I wiill happily play it for the chance to get current resources in a different way.

If 'better' rewards are added, then the hamster wheel will just continue and the complaints will just shift.

IMO, based on current information, it's simply not being added for or targetted to those who already have all the things, for those already at the end of the game, because, well, they have all the things and are basically done.

At the same time, I don't see that the mode is even targetted at most players, just another setting to allow more variety, for those that want it.

Thinking it's going to be revolutionary, especially in the first interation, does not seem wise, IMO.