DE, come on! STOP nerfing accidental fun stuff.. What are you trying to prove?

[Aldain]

17 minutes ago, WingsOfGryphin said:

"Oh, nice new warframe, BUT GUESS WHAT? IT'S S#&$! Why do we need this x warframe, when slash proc can already do the same thing? Heck i can even kill level 8000 grinners by sneezing at them. So what's the point of this new Warframe? What does it bring to the meta? NOTHING! It's Trash, good job DE" 

Why am I getting Xaku launch flashbacks...oh right.

[Colyeses]

1 hour ago, Krankbert said:

That's just something people on this forum accuse DE of thinking because they don't understand the concept of game balancing on any level.

Or because that's what DE have outright stated was their reason for nerfing various things.

[GreyDeath789]

On 2020-09-18 at 6:02 PM, DrivaMain said:

Calm down. They are buffing Mark for Death next week.

Isn't it "unnerfing to a minor degree" not "buffing"?

[GreyDeath789]

4 hours ago, Aldain said:

Gotta love how we've devolved the definition of fun to "playing the game as little as possible by eliminating anything that could cause gameplay to be needed".

That said, they likely overdid it a smidge.

Prior definition of "fun" in Warframe: Grind endlessly for hours to gather resources and kill enemies in same nodes over and over and over using the same game mechanics over and over and over"

Indeed...lets not devolve the definition since it was so much...fun...before...

[TheArcSet]

I agree with your sentiment, but for those specific examples:

1. Xoris was broken, in that it broke the combo system. You can still be OP with exalted abilities, even though it was nerfed, it's just no longer free.
2. Heminth-Roar, Not really a nerf, as we never had any version without the -20% penalty; without the hypothetical comparison, everyone would be praising it even more than they are.
3. Marked for death: It was nerfed, but it was also bugged and broken on release: the loss of power is a nerf, but stopping it double counting all mods and weapons stats, that's just fixing an error they made. If DE screwed up and a hotfix made everything deal 20x damage, you wouldn't call it a nerf when they reset that in the next hotfix. The ability wasn't remotely doing what it was supposed to. They did nerf it at the same time as fixing it, but the nerf reduced it a lot less that fixing the bug did.

[JackHargreav]

Oh yeah I just got reminded.

"De nerfs fun stuff"

I'm honestly surprised that the people who say this don't realize how wrong this is.

Apparently if something is fun it shouldn't be nerfed. Well this means nothing. What fun is subjective and just becuse it's fun that doesn't mean it shouldn't be balanced. Just because an ability can't one-shot big groups with zero effort that doesn't make the ability unfun. How people can whine so much about one incredibly overpowered ability this much is beyond me. Especially when their reasoning is this. 

Well some people would say how De should buff abilities so we have more choice but let's face it. Pull or airbust or any Cc ability will never be on the same level as M4d or Roar or warcry. So even this argument doesn't hold much water.

[DrivaMain]

4 hours ago, ABlindGuyPlays said:

I say this as someone reb blocked on Twitter. BE. POLITE. oK? 

Gee, no wonder Rebb blocked you on twitter. You know DE doesn’t waste their time with players who throw “personal attacks” against them? Yes being POLITE and CIVIL is the answer. 

Hema cost? Mutagen is now dropping like candy is Deimos especially on Cambion Drift. So the meme is basically half dead now.

Xoris? It literally makes all other stat sticks irrelevant. What DE can do? Give all other melee weapons infinite combo time?
 

Limbo? Stasis is the most cheesy warframe power in the game. If anything I want them to rework it entirely. Khora nerf has been reverted.

 

[Aldain]

17 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Hema cost? Mutagen is now dropping like candy is Deimos especially on Cambion Drift.

I wouldn't say "like candy" but I have over 100 on-hand Mutagen for the first time in years and that is a noteworthy improvement.

[(PSN)Glitschig]

I think DE true to dumb down the game for players who haven't learned how to play well yet and too get new butts in the seats instead of honing their game and letting it grow with the veterans.  

[Scar.brother.help.me]

On 2020-09-20 at 10:33 PM, TheArcSet said:

I agree with your sentiment, but for those specific examples:

1. Xoris was broken, in that it broke the combo system. You can still be OP with exalted abilities, even though it was nerfed, it's just no longer free.
2. Heminth-Roar, Not really a nerf, as we never had any version without the -20% penalty; without the hypothetical comparison, everyone would be praising it even more than they are.
3. Marked for death: It was nerfed, but it was also bugged and broken on release: the loss of power is a nerf, but stopping it double counting all mods and weapons stats, that's just fixing an error they made. If DE screwed up and a hotfix made everything deal 20x damage, you wouldn't call it a nerf when they reset that in the next hotfix. The ability wasn't remotely doing what it was supposed to. They did nerf it at the same time as fixing it, but the nerf reduced it a lot less that fixing the bug did.

1.Xoris was a weaker option for the stat stick, but it was more convinient. It just showed that it is about time to let us unbind Naramon's combo decay and some more passives already. Losing the whole combo due to low spawn and fast team kill rate is just an outdated thing that needs to go somehow. Xoris is still in game as is, it still "breaks" the combo system, but just not as a comfy average power stat stick anymore.

 

2. As a Rhino player I really hoped for a full roar transfer so I could just give up on roar for something else requiring for example no duration assuming any minmaxer may have it on their frames instead. It was nerfed pre-launch together with another good skills - larva, warcry, etc. The whole difference is if I want to go for a 5h farm with some crazy minmax fellas they want me to pick a max STR Rhino just for the full Roar.. not a Wisp with Roar - that's what DE achived with the -20% nerf (to be precise it is a -40% of full power nerf).

 

3. I didn't even use MFD, just tried it a little and didn't build too much around it. I am ok with fixing the double the mod mechanic and whatever was really broken, but it was nerfed to the ground and make it a bad choice. If I need to waste my time on picking targets by biggest health - I'll just kill em all faster with any melee...

[Nihillian]

One of the big issue is that they always react with Kneejerks... It is never truly thought out until they already nerf it. 
And then we have useless abilities that they refuse to rework to make them a viable option for frames.

Helminth is just another meta machine. you pick 3 options and that is it. 
Most abilities that you can subsume are kinda worthless and would have been good if they reworked it to be on par with the other abilities that frames have.
One of the frames that has the best kit allround is Nidus. Why? Because the choice of replacing an ability in his kit is hard. A trade-off. While chroma has a no brainer of an ability to remove... His 1, one of the most worthless abilities in the game. Maybe even his 4 but at least that can cc.

Excal's radial javelin is one of those abilities that is also just poop. Barely any damage at all, so you replace it with either roar or warcry or vex armor. Why bother with a lackluster damage ability when you have frames that can nuke with a 2 button combo?

Variety is good but there needs to be a need to an ability to exist. Some frames have perfect synergy with all of their abilities.
We do not NEED a useless/lackluster ability in the game. If everything is useful then it adds to the variety and specialization.

[(PSN)psycofang]

On 2020-09-20 at 6:28 PM, DrivaMain said:

 

 

Limbo? Stasis is the most cheesy warframe power in the game. If anything I want them to rework it entirely. Khora nerf has been reverted.

 

A CC that has to jump through hoops is somehow worse than all the other -press this to turn off the game- powers that dont have to jump through hoops? 

Khora doesnt need to expend bonus energy to make her CC work

Vaubans CC not only rips armors off targets it curls them all into a neat little fish in a barrel for you to shred to pieces 

Hyldrin is literally vauban but bigger

 

I could go on but i just find it weird how stasis gets picked out considering the hoops he has to jump through to achieve the same (or technically less) results than warframes of the same archetype.

[BahamutKaiser]

Xoris was never a really good stat stick, it was a less tedious stat stick. A problem which should have been resolved by resolving how mods interact with abilities was unceremoniously disregarded and ruined a QoL improvement for players that didn't want to maintain an unintended feature of gameplay. 

And that pretty much extends to everything on this list, cheap problem avoidance and worse, knee jerk popularity nerfs for the sake of diversity in spite of fun. 

If they were intelligent about improving diversity than we would have more warframe loadout slots so more new frames could actually be prepared. And there are tons of ways to nerf something while still maintaining value. Roar for instance has a cost, a shared buff range, a duration,  and a damage increase. They could have nerfed the range or made it self buff only, they could even have made it ally buff only.

Ultimately the system exists so we can optimize and mix uses, if the feature jeopardizes the value of something else, they could have just offered something else. But more importantly, there is no way every frame and ability is going to be equally valuable, there are already META frames for nearly every piece of content, and Helminth will not change the fact that it will never be symmetrical. 

They should have just accepted that most players just want more damage on their frames and let players use what they want. Players might use more frames anyway with a simple damage buff, and players might naturally diversify their damage buff with Pilliage and Warcry and so on, simply because of frequency and diminishing return. 

It's a game, sloppy fun policing was a fool move. 

[DrivaMain]

1 hour ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

Vaubans CC not only rips armors off targets it curls them all into a neat little fish in a barrel for you to shred to pieces 

But enemies can still shoot you from outside the bastile and vortex range. Limbo? He can just warp out to avoid damage entirely. Plus Enemies cannot shoot allies inside of cataclysm from the outside.

People are underestimating Limbo. He can easily trap all enemies inside the rift without even breaking a sweat. There is a reason why he is the king of interception.

[Godmode_Ash]

5 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

But enemies can still shoot you from outside the bastile and vortex range. Limbo? He can just warp out to avoid damage entirely. Plus Enemies cannot shoot allies inside of cataclysm from the outside.

People are underestimating Limbo. He can easily trap all enemies inside the rift without even breaking a sweat. There is a reason why he is the king of interception.

King of "solo" interception maybe. But I would take vauban over limbo in group interception. Vortex grouping enemies is so good in group play.

Also, enemies should't be shooting you from outside of vortex, unless you have no range mod.

[(PSN)psycofang]

1 hour ago, DrivaMain said:

But enemies can still shoot you from outside the bastile and vortex range.

That is not possible unless youre either 

A not spamming his skills

 

B using 0 range mods

 

Because A + B = locked down map -without- needing a bonus secondary mechanic to function and also doesnt have the ridiculous bonus of dragging enemies from stupidly far right into itself. 

 

I say this as someone who plays solo Limbo and solo Vauban frequently.

[TheGodofWiFi]

On 2020-09-19 at 1:33 AM, Tyreaus said:

IMO, their reasons for nerfing those things make sense

No it doesn't. It's well known that the Helminth nerfs achieved absolutely nothing but a more cynical playerbase. DE said they wanted to avoid a meta, but instead of buffing the terrible abilities, like Decoy for instance, they took the quicker route and nerfed the good ones, somehow expecting that would encourage people to use Silence instead of Roar. It didn't.

The Xoris nerf also was pretty pointless, as Exalted weapons are kind of garbage when compared to normal melee. The Xoris made it less difficult for Exalted weapons to keep up. That's literally all it did. It didn't make Exalted weapons overpowered because normal melee was still above it, but it definitely helped them. Nerfing that achieved nothing once again, but less enthusiasm for Exalted frames.

The Marked for Death nerf is in the same vein as the rest of the Helminth nerfs.

DE sometimes nerf things simply because its easier than actually fixing their broken and useless abilities, or simply because they feel like it. Pablo nerfed Wukong's Cloud Walker speed for no good reason whatsoever, but simply because he felt like it.

[CodeUltimate]

Don't even forget about the Exodia contagion shadow nerf. xd

[Scar.brother.help.me]

41 minutes ago, CodeUltimate said:

Don't even forget about the Exodia contagion shadow nerf. xd

oh my, I even forgot about this Arcane since the end of that event where it was cool
it wasn't even OP to begin with and I've switched to Hunt in my slam zaws right after the event, and it was already nerfed from Limbo's rift - why even touch it more? was it nerfed badly beyond any reason to ever use it again?

[TioMegaManX]

On 2020-09-18 at 7:56 PM, Rinleric said:

It's because the balancing team, for some ungodly reason, has this silly idea in their head that for some reason, Warframe is a PvP game

As long as there is a scoreboard in the game... in co-op!

[Pizzarugi]

On 2020-09-18 at 4:28 PM, Scar.brother.help.me said:

Buff/Rework OLD stuff, don't nerf and limit good stuff.

I don't want powercreep in the game more than we already have, thanks.

5 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

No it doesn't. It's well known that the Helminth nerfs achieved absolutely nothing but a more cynical playerbase. DE said they wanted to avoid a meta, but instead of buffing the terrible abilities, like Decoy for instance, they took the quicker route and nerfed the good ones, somehow expecting that would encourage people to use Silence instead of Roar. It didn't.

How do you buff Decoy, an aggro sponge, to be a desirable pick over a 30-50% buff that gives you multiplicative damage similar to that of a faction mod?

You can't. Roar will always be top pick if nothing is done about it. Roar shouldn't have been put on the Helminth list in the first place.

[Kaotyke]

8 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

You can't. Roar will always be top pick if nothing is done about it. Roar shouldn't have been put on the Helminth list in the first place.

Should have been Rhino Charge.

Would have been HILLARIOUS to use that as Fairy Titania...

[Krankbert]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb TheGodofWiFi:

No it doesn't. It's well known that the Helminth nerfs achieved absolutely nothing but a more cynical playerbase. DE said they wanted to avoid a meta, but instead of buffing the terrible abilities, like Decoy for instance

It's strange how it's always Decoy, isn't it? Almost as if you guys were all just repeating something.

[trst]

6 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

No it doesn't. It's well known that the Helminth nerfs achieved absolutely nothing but a more cynical playerbase. DE said they wanted to avoid a meta, but instead of buffing the terrible abilities, like Decoy for instance, they took the quicker route and nerfed the good ones, somehow expecting that would encourage people to use Silence instead of Roar. It didn't.

The Xoris nerf also was pretty pointless, as Exalted weapons are kind of garbage when compared to normal melee. The Xoris made it less difficult for Exalted weapons to keep up. That's literally all it did. It didn't make Exalted weapons overpowered because normal melee was still above it, but it definitely helped them. Nerfing that achieved nothing once again, but less enthusiasm for Exalted frames.

The Marked for Death nerf is in the same vein as the rest of the Helminth nerfs.

DE sometimes nerf things simply because its easier than actually fixing their broken and useless abilities, or simply because they feel like it. Pablo nerfed Wukong's Cloud Walker speed for no good reason whatsoever, but simply because he felt like it.

Please explain how Decoy could be buffed to be on par with Roar. No really please do as people like you keep repeating this without ever giving a single example.

The crux of the Xoris drama is that stat sticks still exist in the first place. While that should be addressed it still remains a fact that fixing stat sticks is an immense task relative to knocking out a single outlier who's interaction was seemingly unintended. As well even without the stat stick issue having a single easily acquired weapon bypass an entire system is bad design especially as it is a viable stat stick.

M4D was objectively broken and overpowered. Again please describe how other abilities could be on par with something that could instantly kill a room of enemies by hitting the games integer cap with two button presses.

Dealing with the 1% of outliers is easier and a wiser time investment than dealing with the bottom 99%. Especially as it's this top 1% of gear that creates the most problems within the communities perception of what is actually good or not.

[Roble_Viejo]

Im so #*!%ing tired. They don't even have the balls to disclose half of the stuff they nerf anymore.