The Arsenal Divide: Changes & Follow Ups

[AziSlays]

On 2021-06-22 at 1:15 PM, -Kittens- said:

No thanks.

Grind so you can grind while grinding for your grind didn't work with railjack and it's not going be any more popular or "convenient" here.

lemme ask you the question you seem to be missing: Who the hell jumps into steel path before Arbitrations?

[Maryph]

Il y a 5 heures, (XBOX)CFG SatanDevil a dit :

But a lot of people complained that the mods are in SP available. 
 

Where instead? 
 

no matter what DE do, it will be wrong for a lot of people.

SP? No 

Arbi? No

RJ? No
 

 

SP was nice, seriously, people complain about this mode because they want to stomp it without actually thinking about a build
You don't need a viable primary, and you don't even need a viable melee to do it, you can just do a build with a power focused frame, and go
SP is far from being difficult, but in a game where the players are just waiting to get things handed to them instead of actually having to go and fight for it, it's really not surprising

And even though you don't want to do that, you can still being carried with the Alert missions (that'll have their rewards increased to 5, for nothing)

It would have allowed to farm for mods AND arcanes, rn I don't want to farm acolytes to just collect one of the #*!%ing numerous arcanes they're going to pull out, i'll just buy them because it'll be less boring than to wait for RNG to do it's job.

This move is incomprehensible and soon you'll no longer need to actually play warframe to have things that requires a bit of modding.
Anyone with a poorly modded AoE weapon can clear arbitration without even his screen on.

And don't tell me that their justification of why the mods have been moved is nice, because you really don't need to do SP at all when you play warframe, SP is just an empty shell with artificial difficulty on top of it and doesn't bring anything new to the table, actually having mods (and arcanes while you farm mods) was a nice overhaul to make it useful.
Releasing mods to make SP easier ? To what end seriously ? What's the utility of this mode for a casual ? There's none, no rewards whatsoever aside from two ephemeras and one ugly operator outfit (well, the male version is ugly as hell)
The should've taken their time to properly redo every stats for primaries and secondaries, like they did for melee 3.0 instead of putting a bandaid to say "Hey, everyone can now do SP thanks to those mods". Yeah, ty, everyone will now be able to play SP, and see that even with one of those mod, they can't kill anything because they don't know how to mod a thing in the first place.
They'll not make you godlike, with what we have rn, everyone can do SP, even the most casual player, you just need a brain and the function to learn a few things.
And if you don't have the time for some reason (IRL, other things) that's ok, IRL first, but learning is also part of the game, and that also mean that this game mode is not for you, don't worry, you don't miss on anything.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

So melees getting nerfed.

And while that alone is enough to be angry about that’s not why I’m angry about them.

During the last Devstream of 2020 Rebecca stated something along the lines of “2021 will be the end of the nerf hammer memes”. Now I took that as her saying that DEs going to finally going to be smarter about how they go about balancing things in 2021 and not just default to “oh a lot of people are using this time to reduce its effectiveness by 90%”. And I decided “I’m going to hold you guys at DE to that statement”. Because 2019-2020 was honestly probably the toughest spot I’ve ever seen Warframe in.

And for the first half of 2021 it genuinely felt like they were taking that approach. I mean the Railjack update this year nerfed some stuff but Railjacks also still basically in its beta phase, so it’s of course going to have major changes made to it. But with those nerfs Railjacks actually fun to play now and I genuinely look forward to all the new missions and quests that will be made for it.

Then we got Void Storms and Sevagoth. Void Storms definitely need a look at on the opening relics side of things as it literally takes you 3x as long to open a relic there than a normal mission. But Sevagoth is incredible. Like he is my new favorite frame. And the update also contained no nerfs to anything.

Now we get to the upcoming “Arsenal Divide changes”. And more specifically the melee nerfs.
Rendering Berserker an obsolete mod due to making it an ‘on kill’ and making it unstackable with Fury, nerfing Blood Rush (the mod that from my understanding literally took melee out of the “Invis with Loki and heavy attack for stealth damage multiplier” meta melee was in) by 1/3 because like 10 high crit weapons can hit red crits with just it, nerfing CO again (IDC the mod was dead to me the last time it was nerfed).

When it was first stated that melee was getting “small nerfs” I was extremely worried because of course this is Digital Extremes we’re talking about here. The idea of them doing a “small nerf” is like expecting a Tank to gently cross an old wooden bridge. But I remembered the “no nerf hammers in 2021” and decided to withhold judgement until I saw the nerfs.

The nerfs stated above. They are not “small nerfs”. It is rendering 1 mod completely useless and reducing the effectiveness of a core melee mod by 1/3. That is a Nerf Hammer if I have ever seen one.

So the reason I am angry about these nerfs is not just because they are out of line nerfs that don’t need to be implemented. But because after being told that the nerf hammers would end in 2021, and being shown that that mentality was being practiced for at least half the year. Seeing them go back to the thing they said they’d stop doing is infuriating.

[Almagnus1]

IMO the melee nerfs should all be delayed for like 2-3 months after implementing the primary and secondary stuff.  I don't want to feel like I'm being forced to put down the melee weapons because DE is actively breaking everything that makes their meta work... I want to pick up my primary and secondary because I WANT TO USE THEM.

There is absolutely no point to flip the problem from melee being king to primaries and secondaries being king when the goal is to bring everything to equal footing.

[AziSlays]

24 minutes ago, SephirothWS said:

Steel Path and Arbis are both unlocked by the same requirements: Complete the Star Chart.

arbis are significantly easier than steel path. The change to how to get Galvanized mods is fine. Honestly it's ridiculous how many well established are acting so entitled about this change. If you can already handle Steel Path you don't need the mods in the first place, the same is not true for newer players getting there for the first time.

 

6 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

IMO the melee nerfs should all be delayed for like 2-3 months after implementing the primary and secondary stuff.  I don't want to feel like I'm being forced to put down the melee weapons because DE is actively breaking everything that makes their meta work... I want to pick up my primary and secondary because I WANT TO USE THEM.

There is absolutely no point to flip the problem from melee being king to primaries and secondaries being king when the goal is to bring everything to equal footing.

Melee is still going to be king anyway, but I do agree that waiting a couple months at least to see how these new things shake things up is a good idea.

 

Then again this is DE we're talking about. Nerfing stuff before it comes out, seeing player data and never using it to improve the game. They'd just ignore whatever happens and push the nerfs anyway.

[PieExplosion]

Four seconds on Merciless arcanes usually means the bonus doesn't transfer to the next room and pigeon-holes the arcane to AoE weapons.  It's probably a second or two too short to comfortably use on non-AoE weapons.

[CometFireClaw]

On 2021-06-22 at 1:07 PM, .Khaos. said:

Why, just why...

Argeed !  WHY.......Why not both, having multiple sources would be great and enables great synergy between both end game modes

[ShogunGunshow]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

It's only players that assume everything in the game is supposed to super OP and efficient. It's an option just like everything else. You're free to not use it. Someone else may use it though. 

If you apply that logic to the game, then these gun buffs absolutely aren't needed. Melee is just an option like everything else, etc.

Except that's not the way people interact with the game - and that's not the way DE designs it. If something is efficient, the meta shifts towards it. If it's too efficient, the meta is defined by it, and in a live-service game like Warframe, stagnation is death. It is in DE's best interest, then, to make a meta that's diverse - and part of that is making sure that the options that players have available to them have relative parity, or else there are no real options at all.

So yeah, please reconsider your 'it's okay for one of the three arcane lines to be absolutely terrible' argument. I'd like more genuine choices in Warframe, not less.

[Graavarg]

1 hour ago, Jesterof_Chaos said:

Well I had hoped by some of my comments later in my post, I would have made it clear that if these mods were available in base star chart, they are for everyone. And no, I'm not talking about them being available in Arbitrations. Plenty of others have given why that is almost as bad as locking them behind SP. I don't really have an answer as to where to put them.

But at the same time, I've made it clear they should be put into the base versions they are upgrading. As they are now, they are basically conditional Prime mods. I feel the amount of mods we have available is really starting to get bloated. Adding in a whole new class of mod types isn't going to help. It's just going to push a lot more mods that aren't being used into the dirt.

I did sit here and try to think of some way melee mods could be galvanized, but unless they are only 'on kill' like the current galvanized are, and with the way melee works, it's no use making those. Melee already has base mods that these are acting like.

I wasn't criticizing you, I was actually mostly agreeing with you. I have the opposite view of the Galvanized mods, I think they are adding to the game and more importantly, introducing a state where 7 or all 8 mods are not automatically given.

I do agree that the mod amount is somewhat bloated, but in my view this is mostly due to all those "never used" mods. The mods no-one would notice are even missing if they were silently removed from the game. DE could at least reduce the mod cost for that bunch, maybe even making a few of them semi-viable as "the last selection" now that we are going to be "mod space-challenged".

I think galvanizing melee mods is the last thing DE is thinking about, instead melee overall is intended to at least held back at it's current damage potential. I don't think it's the amount of damage that is the actual problem though, it is the amount of damage you can put out with melee without any skill or game-playing, just by mashing your E repeatedly.

 

50 minutes ago, SephirothWS said:

Steel Path and Arbis are both unlocked by the same requirements: Complete the Star Chart.

So?

It is about collecting Vitus Essence vs Steel Essence. Or rather, how much easier it is for a player that has just completed the star chart to collect Vitus than it is to collect SE. Which then translates into that player's possibility to acquire the new Galvanized mods.

[Jesterof_Chaos]

4 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

I wasn't criticizing you, I was actually mostly agreeing with you. I have the opposite view of the Galvanized mods, I think they are adding to the game and more importantly, introducing a state where 7 or all 8 mods are not automatically given.

I do agree that the mod amount is somewhat bloated, but in my view this is mostly due to all those "never used" mods. The mods no-one would notice are even missing if they were silently removed from the game. DE could at least reduce the mod cost for that bunch, maybe even making a few of them semi-viable as "the last selection" now that we are going to be "mod space-challenged".

I think galvanizing melee mods is the last thing DE is thinking about, instead melee overall is intended to at least held back at it's current damage potential. I don't think it's the amount of damage that is the actual problem though, it is the amount of damage you can put out with melee without any skill or game-playing, just by mashing your E repeatedly.

I didn't take what you said as criticism. Just felt like I should further clarify myself a bit.

I get the idea behind the galvanized mods. And yes, they could be a good idea after some more work to implement them better. I just feel that using them as the main fix to the current problem is flawed and something else needs to be done first.

I don't really have an opinion on the arcances since I barely bother with the current arcanes in the game. I see them only as something to help boost you further if you need it.

[(PSN)Alphonso-Alonso]

Okay hear me out...

 

Since this all began allegedly because the devs did not like people being unable to appreciate the animations of heavy swords...

 

why not just cap the influence of speed that mods have on THOSE weapons? like pick a point where the animator designates “okay, about that speed is what I am going to tolerate our players increasing the swing speed to. Anything beyond that speed and they won’t be able to realize how cool this weapon is. In fact, give them the option to go directly into captura during each swing because boy we need these animations to be appreciated!”

 

and then BAM- there’s the ceiling. Everyone will applaud the animations for the heavy swords. All will be well.

 

no melee nerfs needed

gun “buffs” can just be the mods locks behind whatever Monopoly money you want them to be locked behind. 

beserker doesn’t need to be obsolete-

And heavy swords will gather dust as not to invite this rebalancing hell upon us ever again. 

 

[SephirothWS]

30 minutes ago, AziSlays said:

arbis

Reread my post, including the quoted portion of it.

8 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

So?

Reread my post, including the quoted portion of it.

I was responding to someone saying Arbitrations come BEFORE Steel Path. That is not the case, the unlock procedure is the same for both systems, except Arbitrations unlock IMMEDIATELY when completing the star chart, you have to MANUALLY VISIT TESHIN in the Relay to open up Steel Path, but the requirements are the same.

Sure, Arbitrations have lower enemy levels, however the complete RNG nature of Arbitrations makes the mode not fun to slog through. The Arbitration Drones that say screw you Warframes don't really add to the equation there, as well as the stupid death penalty system that Arbitrations have don't really make running in a squad more fun. In fact, that death penalty system PENALIZES the rest of your squad. Arbitrations need a complete revisit on ALL of its systems to make it much more fun to play.

[Petroklos]

48 minutes ago, AziSlays said:

lemme ask you the question you seem to be missing: Who the hell jumps into steel path before Arbitrations?

I'll assume that it's lots of people, with Steel Path being a very popular place to measure your ePeen length test flashy end-game Builds on YouTube, drawing the attention of newbies, while Arbitrations are getting little to no attention. People don't even recommend it for Endo farming, even though it still is the best place for it. Hopefully putting these Mods in the Arbies Store will change that.

[(PSN)Fury4thorsmen]

Can you guys just stop only listening to the  warframe Community manager and actually listen to the Community itself as a hole no one wants any of these terrible decisions for weapons and mods and no one wants to play raljack at all so putting kuva liches in rail Jack is this going to make it so I'm not ever going for kuva liches anymore stop trying to make us play railjack it's so boring i like the star chart is more fun 

[ValinorAtani]

Am 22.6.2021 um 20:02 schrieb [DE]Rebecca:

Tenno!

- snip -

To be honest here. Adding additional Arcanes to avoid mandatory groundwork for Primaries and Secondaries as a Bandaid shows a attitude of laziness and lack of proper vision where to go. If I should sum it up its a creative bankruptcy for DE to come up with this kind of solution. First you wasted already players time with adding an artificial arcane rank up to boost your plat sales and player login numbers and now this.

In the past Warframe rewarded me so well, allowed me to do whatever I feel is most fun at the time and genuinely makes me look forward to returning to this world. The reason I dislike the recent Warframe is it more and more designed to waste my time, not to entertain me, but to force me to spend all your time within it.

Be it refarming Arcanes, be it refarming Frames for the Helminth S#&$show, Nightwave BullS#&$ and it continues with Mods and S#&$loads of Mods which are only Bandaids to the Problems instead of fixes. It's like having a relationship where you genuinely enjoy the other person and want to spend your time with them (former WF) vs you have to or they'll make you suffer (recent WF patches).

Guys this kind of recent intention to waste players time even more to bind them only to your game is an extremly antigaming attitude (even for F2P). Now for me Warframe is just a hollow, soulless shell of its former self and it's just sad to see it happens.

They promising the world to the playerbase, then squander all of their development time on busted disfunctional patches.

[Graavarg]

18 minutes ago, SephirothWS said:

Reread my post, including the quoted portion of it.

I was responding to someone saying Arbitrations come BEFORE Steel Path. That is not the case, the unlock procedure is the same for both systems, except Arbitrations unlock IMMEDIATELY when completing the star chart, you have to MANUALLY VISIT TESHIN in the Relay to open up Steel Path, but the requirements are the same.

Sure, Arbitrations have lower enemy levels, however the complete RNG nature of Arbitrations makes the mode not fun to slog through. The Arbitration Drones that say screw you Warframes don't really add to the equation there, as well as the stupid death penalty system that Arbitrations have don't really make running in a squad more fun. In fact, that death penalty system PENALIZES the rest of your squad. Arbitrations need a complete revisit on ALL of its systems to make it much more fun to play.

Well, you quoted me saying that the Galvanized mods will now be available before Steel Path. Which they will be, a player that has just unlocked the starchart can now get them all by doing Arbitrations, and can then utilize them against the toughest normal enemies in the game on the Steel Path.

I am no fan of Arbitrations, but this is a more fair drop for Galvanized mods overall, compared to including them among Teshin's SE goods. It will benefit more players, which is a good thing. 

[ReaverKane]

I was hoping that the early signs of sobriety from DE would be a good sign. But yeah, we'll be reeling from the issues here for years.
The Mods went from a somewhat hard to access game mode (but then again Steel Path on Earth is Lich 5 difficulty) to a broken game mode that isn't fun. Went from a currency with somewhat stable ways to obtain to one that's primarily RNG.
I'd say its a major step backwards.
Want players to access the mods? Put them on Bounties.

The changes themselves are band-aids that don't address the core issue: melee has baked in scaling, and anything that scales in warframe is a better option, because it allows you to keep up with the enemy. Guns don't have that baked in, the new mods and now berserker being on-kill don't help, because the issue is that guns are bad at killing stuff in high level content, so if they can't do that, they can't scale. A better system would have a mechanic that mirrors the combo counter and have mods that scale of that, just like melee. There's already a accuracy statistic in the game, some fiddling with that is exactly the kind of mechanic that allows for this scaling content. Hits with weapons increase the counter, misses decrease it, don't have a cooldown, and bam, there you go. Fix how accuracy is tallied so that weapons don't count punch through and splash damage as above 100% accuracy. To account for lenz, pent and the like, hitting with splash damage still counts as a hit.
Give a slight damage or critical chance bonus for accuracy (you're in the zone, so you're more effective), and get the new mods to galvanize with this, just like you have Blood Rush. That's it.

It takes slightly more effort than the solution followed by DE, but would definitely be easier to balance and would provide a much better parallel between melee and ranged weapons.

This way, its the usual problem of patching up old pipes instead of replacing them, you'll end up with more patches than pipe and the leaks will keep on leaking.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

2 hours ago, Graavarg said:

Second sentence: Yes, it's complete bull. The whole "should be able to buy for Steel Essence"-narrative is mostly driven by players already having piles (and piles) of Steel Essence in storage (and established farming methods to get more). It has nothing to do with "playing SP content", only with turning those piles of SE into "Galvanized" mods, and those mods into plat. And when greed/plat is involved you just can't trust anything anymore, the forum turns into the darkside of IRL.

Not even. I have stocks of Vitus Essence left over from farming years ago when it was the best way to get Kuva.
What I recognize is that it is much easier and consistent to farm Steel Essence than it is Vitus Essence without particular strategies that need squad cooperation. If you have a group who knows what they're doing, you'll have a larger pile of Vitus than Steel Essence.

So you must part of the "Arbitration Mafia" I guess, who have piles and piles of Vitus, and seek to convert all the piles into Galvanized mods and those into plat. /s

Baseless accusations are pretty easy. You assume malice when its far more likely that people who advocate for the mods to stay in Teshin's shop realize that it is actually easier for your average player to farm Steel Essence than Vitus.

[--RV--Cola]

I honestly do not understand these changes, the Dexterity Arcanes were already going to be the most popular ones for any *sensible* person and now they have extra holster rate and combo duration as well? Single arcane meta incoming.

[Chester_Wills]

Are there any plans for Archguns? 

[-Augustus-]

20 hours ago, YKYuj said:

Railjack could be a better alternative, since RJ has been experiencing a "drought" after you do the quest and farm all the necessary Sevagoth parts.

"Stop trying to make fetch railjack happen. It's not going to happen!"

[Alrightchristian]

Kind of shocked that you would put the mods in arbitrations, the farm for their specified currency is overall worse in comparison to steel path. maybe arbitrations could use a drop rate rework and you could implement a "Steel Path variation" with double the vitus essence quantity, increase drop rate and include better rewards. Now, lowering the drain of those mods was a great idea but I still think the "on kill" mods need to be addressed, that requirement is simply not fair in comparison to condition overload, weeping wounds, and blood rush. I know that you might think the "on kill" requirement is justified but giving the content you're trying to make primary/secondary's viable in, it simply isn't .

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, ShogunGunshow said:

If you apply that logic to the game, then these gun buffs absolutely aren't needed. Melee is just an option like everything else, etc.

Except that's not the way people interact with the game - and that's not the way DE designs it. If something is efficient, the meta shifts towards it. If it's too efficient, the meta is defined by it, and in a live-service game like Warframe, stagnation is death. It is in DE's best interest, then, to make a meta that's diverse - and part of that is making sure that the options that players have available to them have relative parity, or else there are no real options at all.

So yeah, please reconsider your 'it's okay for one of the three arcane lines to be absolutely terrible' argument. I'd like more genuine choices in Warframe, not less.

The meta is some humans with a lack of ability to plan, prepare, and use their wide game knowledge base (if they have one) to use the many tools available.

 

[EmberStar]

1 hour ago, AziSlays said:

lemme ask you the question you seem to be missing: Who the hell jumps into steel path before Arbitrations?

Anyone who doesn't want their time wasted by the mechanics of Arbitration, limited revives and "oops, host died and quit, screw you all and now you get nothing because Host Migration glitched out.  Again."  Also anyone who doesn't want to deal with the fact that you can't *choose* the mission type for Arbitrations (and many mission types just aren't fun even *without* Arbitration Drones.)  And anyone who wants to even have a chance to progress more than once per hour.  I've done probably less than a dozen Arbitrations since they were introduced, and only did *those* to try to get the keys to build a second Grendel to feed to Helminth.  (I flat out Wallet Warriored the Grendel I plan to keep.)  Which means it's very likely that I completed several planets on Steel Path before doing any detectable amount of Arbitrations.

[HolySeraphin]

22 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Honestly, the older mods could all use a cost reduction especially Split Chamber.

Aside from the disparity of power, a big draw for melee is that they require way less investment to achieve peak performance due to stance mods. New arcanes and fatter mods doesn't address this issue and only adds to it.

To fit all these mods, Players will probably be funneled into Kuva weapons due to the sunk cost of 5 forma and bonus capacity that normal guns don't have.

Another reason to keep using Kuva Bramma and Kuva Nukor.

 

All DE need to do is make the arcanes give mod capacity or convert it to weapon aura mods.