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AOE Firearms made any non-AOE Firearms looks bad and some current game stage...


ChukunoHoshi
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After I noticed that DE update huge patch for buffing firearm weapon, I came back to play warframe again and I can say that the game looks more enjoyable( Only Veterans ) of course...

While my friends who're the new comer can't reach anything or get to the core game like some of my old friends did in the past( Old day is more enjoyable ).

The worst is AOE weapon, imagine...entering the mission and what you cam see is explosive everywhere and It's happened every mission. and why they use it ? because It's the best weapon in the game when we're talking about the firearm.

Some of you may say : "Because warframe is the fast place game you loser" oh reallly ? let me compare something to you...

While some AOE firearm like most of explosive kuva weapons can kill steel path enemies with in 3-6 seconds and some top assault rifle take entire magazine and 8-12 seconds to kill 1 guy.

Galvanized mods and Primary Arcanes made AOE firearm gain stack pretty fast. while first assault rifle stack effect run out before can kill the second guy.

Best way to beat steel path or tough enemy is using AOE firearm ( Sniper still good ) while other firearm can't deal 25% damage of AOE firearm. IS THIS REALLY THE FAST PLACE GAME FOR YOU ?

even in the normal mission, AOE firearm is still the best. and complete broke the "fun" of the game for other squad mates.

I talking about this because I want to save the game, the enjoyable of the game and friendliness for new player.

What I want DE to change is make other firearms great again like the old day where almost every weapon was good.

 

Sorry for my bad english and my concern about stage of the game.

 

 

 

 

 

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Yeah, its now an old problem that was introduced with addition of no-self-damage tonkor and then made worse by complete removal of self-damage.

AOE weapons win as long as they deal same DPS as your average assault rifle. DE tried self-stagger and lowered ammo pools, but i'm not sure if its working. Although bramma is technically dead, kinda... Need more stats on that though.

We need get self-damage back. Just make it work differently. Instead of it being "fair" and just dealing your own damage to you (which just oneshots even the most tankiest warframes) it should be some kind of flat value, like 200-300 damage to oneself. So instead of being a oneshot it would be double-triple shot. Still dangerous, but more managable.

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1 hour ago, Rawbeard said:

welcome to like 5 years ago.

I still remember the good ol' Tonkor meta.

But yeah aoe Weapons are outdamaging non aoe weapons. 

25 minutes ago, Artekkor said:

DE tried self-stagger and lowered ammo pools

A problem which was made obsolete with PSF.

 

26 minutes ago, Artekkor said:

We need get self-damage back.

Yes. As far as i like big damage, if the damage numbers dont get changed, there should be at least a drawback using AOE guns, else this becomes the meta again. 

For example a fixed percentage ~10 % self damage, enemys have weakponts that non aoe guns can use, aoe blasts respect covers and walls (much like khoras nerf), enemys seeking cover, ...

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30 minutes ago, Artekkor said:

We need get self-damage back.

So then everyone throws away their Bramma or Zarr for their Ignis, Cycron, Plasmor, Nukor, or melee weapon, then continues the same exact AoE gameplay, with single target weapons still looking pathetic by comparison. Or they run Cautious Shot with a tank frame and keep on spamming their Bramma or Zarr.

Maybe if they made self damage a fixed percentage of player health, so that it never one shots, and affects Ivara the same as Inaros. I'd rather see them buff single target weapons by giving us ways to add AoE damage to them. Make Deadhead arcanes add radial damage to headshots, give Gas and Blast procs viable radial damage, etc.

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51 minutes ago, Artekkor said:

We need get self-damage back.

Only if the enemies can blow themselves up as well, otherwise we're dealing with an unfair playing field.

Let's face it, Cautious Shot was a band-aid that never even worked to begin with. The problem we suffer from will never be alleviated because DE has very little comprehension or ambition when it comes to balancing weapons & implementing competent mechanics. That's why self-damage was intolerable back then; you could kill yourself faster with garbage like the Stug than you could the actual enemy.

Edited by (PSN)IndianChiefJeff
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As someone mentioned right, you want AoE weapon in hoard-killing game. It’s simply as it. If I want go to SP infested survival I will take my Kuva Ogris to kill all those swarms. 

Base gameplay is not friendly to assault rifles, smg, casual pistols etc. and even machineguns not always shine. For using those weapons you need crouch like Helminth’s Larva from Nidus (Which is imo one of best helminth abilities ) + punch-through. We need some enemies that very resisted to AoE damage but get more damage from general weapons. And of course we wpuld need some tied gameplay to this.

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3 hours ago, SpiritTeA said:

As someone mentioned right, you want AoE weapon in hoard-killing game. It’s simply as it. If I want go to SP infested survival I will take my Kuva Ogris to kill all those swarms. 

Base gameplay is not friendly to assault rifles, smg, casual pistols etc. and even machineguns not always shine. For using those weapons you need crouch like Helminth’s Larva from Nidus (Which is imo one of best helminth abilities ) + punch-through. We need some enemies that very resisted to AoE damage but get more damage from general weapons. And of course we wpuld need some tied gameplay to this.

To counterpoint, a lot of horde-based games don't use this kind of thing to anywhere near the same frequency. Left 4 Dead and Deep Rock Galactic are horde games, yet they're pretty friendly to single-target weapons like Shotguns, Assault Rifles, even Gattling Guns. This is achieved because these weapons usually have the main advantage of having a much friendlier ammo economy than their AoE weapons. Deep Rock also adds that precision weapons are better at dealing high damage to the frequent large targets too.

 

As you say, we need enemies that resist AoE damage. However, the system to do this already exists. Armour. Have AoE damage be blunted by armour and shields, and then give enemies meant to be torn apart en-masse much less. The issue, of course, is that Armour scales. With scaling armour, that means you can't do this. After all, once you start cranking up the levels with scaling armour, you go from a light enemy having the likes of 30% damage resistance and a heavy having 60% to both having more than 90%. And that's before you add in stuff like the Steel Path armour modifiers. At a high enough level, everything needs to deal with armour. Everything needs to be able to break through or bypass armour. So instead of a situation where single-target weapons are good at breaking through heavily defended targets and AoE at clearing out lightly-defended trash mobs (with weapons like Assault Rifles in the middle), AoE weapons are also great at breaking through armour, and thus treat heavy units as lightly-defended trash mobs. Or, alternatively, their AoE isn't good at that, and they're useless.

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53 минуты назад, Loza03 сказал:

To counterpoint, a lot of horde-based games don't use this kind of thing to anywhere near the same frequency. Left 4 Dead and Deep Rock Galactic are horde games, yet they're pretty friendly to single-target weapons like Shotguns, Assault Rifles, even Gattling Guns. This is achieved because these weapons usually have the main advantage of having a much friendlier ammo economy than their AoE weapons. Deep Rock also adds that precision weapons are better at dealing high damage to the frequent large targets too.

 

As you say, we need enemies that resist AoE damage. However, the system to do this already exists. Armour. Have AoE damage be blunted by armour and shields, and then give enemies meant to be torn apart en-masse much less. The issue, of course, is that Armour scales. With scaling armour, that means you can't do this. After all, once you start cranking up the levels with scaling armour, you go from a light enemy having the likes of 30% damage resistance and a heavy having 60% to both having more than 90%. And that's before you add in stuff like the Steel Path armour modifiers. At a high enough level, everything needs to deal with armour. Everything needs to be able to break through or bypass armour. So instead of a situation where single-target weapons are good at breaking through heavily defended targets and AoE at clearing out lightly-defended trash mobs (with weapons like Assault Rifles in the middle), AoE weapons are also great at breaking through armour, and thus treat heavy units as lightly-defended trash mobs. Or, alternatively, their AoE isn't good at that, and they're useless.

Well I could only agree partially. In theory our launchers have worse ammo efficiency. But we have ammo mutatirs. Base damage is very solid problem. Like most rifles, pistols etc have disgusting base damage stats compared to Heavy weapons. And huge firerate isn’t really making favour. It’s easier to make 100k slash proc with one hit rather that making 1k slash procks in 100 hits. In Killing Floor and Payday (only horde shooters I’ve played) launchers are not brokdn because their damage 1) doesn’t scale wildly with mods/perks/upgrades like shotguns and rifles potentially can, 2) most of important probably is lacking of reliable headshot powers, 3) MUCH lower ammo efficiency, which you can’t restore that easily.

And hordes in those games most likely very different from our. In warframe at the start of potential “end game” (let’s consider this as SP) all simple armored enemies transforms into super heavies and super heavies transforms in crappy mini-bosses. And so on. 

Edited by SpiritTeA
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This is just a basic numerical issue.

It feel as as if DE balances AoE-weapons around shooting like... HALF an enemy, for some weird reason, if you look at DPS. What do I mean?

Let's have a look at Kitguns. Supposedly, since you can customize these, one would expect that they'd all be fairly even, right?

 

Well, let's take the Catchmoon (with Haymaker and Killstream).

Damage per shot (not counting crits): 460

Fire rate: 1,17

Raw non-crit DPS: 538,2

Targets you can hit per shot: As many as it can pierce through (it's not uncommon to hit 4+ targets per shot)

 

Now, take the Rattleguts (also with Haymaker and Killstream, to make a fair comparison):

Damage per shot (not counting crits): 71

Fire rate: 3,67

Raw non-crit DPS: 260,57

Targets per shot: 1 (unless you mod it for Punchthrough, but I digress)

 

So, the Rattleguts is weaker in DPS AND hits fewer targets per shot. I feel that pretty much summarizes the issue with DE's AoE-vs-Singletarget weapon balancing... i.e. there IS no such balance.

Edited by Azamagon
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Let's push this topic together to let DE know about this, this is the most important thing DE have to change before adding more stuffs and still get old issues.

I want to use other firearms badly in high level mission intead of using same AOE firearms and glinding around and shoot things.

This case is worst than "Maiming Strike Meta" I can say...If they didn't change anything about this....Say good bye to new players and old verterans who already stop playing this game.

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1 час назад, Azamagon сказал:

This is just a basic numerical issue.

It feel as as if DE balances AoE-weapons around shooting like... HALF an enemy, for some weird reason, if you look at DPS. What do I mean?

Let's have a look at Kitguns. Supposedly, since you can customize these, one would expect that they'd all be farily even, right?

 

Well, let's take the Catchmoon (with Haymaker and Killstream).

Damage per shot (not counting crits): 460

Fire rate: 1,17

Raw non-crit DPS: 538,2

Targets you can hit per shot: As many as you it can pierce through (it's not uncommon to hit 4+ targets per shot)

 

Now, take the Rattleguts (also with Haymaker and Killstream, to make a fair comparison):

Damage per shot (not counting crits): 71

Fire rate: 3,67

Raw non-crit DPS: 260,57

Targets per shot: 1 (unless you mod it for Punchthrough, but I digress)

 

So, the Rattleguts is weaker in DPS AND hits fewer targets per shot. I feel that pretty much summarizes the issue with DE's AoE-vs-Singletarget weapon balancing... i.e. there IS no such balance.

That’s exactly the problem I described, non AoE weapons have unjustified  base damage, even if sometimes it can be “justified” by firerate on paper.  

Just remember when Ignis with 100 damage and 1 firerate was changed to 10 damage and 10 firerate. On paper stats didn’t change at all, but God, how terribly it dropped the gun. Everyone forgot it untill Wraith version with normal firerate appeared, lol. 

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13 hours ago, SpiritTeA said:

Well I could only agree partially. In theory our launchers have worse ammo efficiency. But we have ammo mutatirs. Base damage is very solid problem. Like most rifles, pistols etc have disgusting base damage stats compared to Heavy weapons. And huge firerate isn’t really making favour. It’s easier to make 100k slash proc with one hit rather that making 1k slash procks in 100 hits. In Killing Floor and Payday (only horde shooters I’ve played) launchers are not brokdn because their damage 1) doesn’t scale wildly with mods/perks/upgrades like shotguns and rifles potentially can, 2) most of important probably is lacking of reliable headshot powers, 3) MUCH lower ammo efficiency, which you can’t restore that easily.

And hordes in those games most likely very different from our. In warframe at the start of potential “end game” (let’s consider this as SP) all simple armored enemies transforms into super heavies and super heavies transforms in crappy mini-bosses. And so on. 

Not to mention Ammo Mutation mods fit in the Exilus slot.

AOE weapons basically get refunded their entire ammo pool after wiping a cluster with a single shot.

A single mod giving high burst AOE DPS, but low sustained DPS weapons sustained DPS.

Reload speed mods do the same thing for weapons with low reload speed, but they don't fit in the Exilus slot.

Ammo Mutation as it exists is probably too powerful.

Maybe instead of converting random ammo types off the floor into the correct one, it should simply increases the pickup efficiency of the correct ammo type?

 

 

Edited by DealerOfAbsolutes
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On 2021-08-01 at 9:42 AM, Xylena_Lazarow said:

So then everyone throws away their Bramma or Zarr for their Ignis, Cycron, Plasmor, Nukor, or melee weapon, then continues the same exact AoE gameplay, with single target weapons still looking pathetic by comparison.

This guy gets it ^

I remember before DE removed self dmg from explosive weapons the meta was just the highest range melees (like meme strike whips and polearms), AoE beam weapons like amprex when beams got buffed, and ofc AoE nuke abilities from warframes as well, like mesa, saryn, etc.

 Even if DE nerfs explosive weapons into the ground, people will just flock to the next best thing. It won't magically make single target better. And if they nerf all weapons, people will just spam nuke frames more. 

To fix the single target vs AoE problem, DE would need to make more drastic changes on how combat and enemies work. But they don't seem willing (or able) to do that. 

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I say, screw it, and add in this:

New Mod:  Explosive bullets.  Hitscan bullets have a 30/60/90% chance to do an aoe explosion for 15/30/45% of weapon damage with a radius of 3/6/9 meters, reduce max ammo by 10/20/30% or something.   

At least then I can use my beloved Tibby P and Opticor Vandal without feeling like I am gimping myself for style points.   DE is ok with aoe being king?  Lets go all in and make every weapon AOE.  

Edited by OmegaDonut
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5 часов назад, OmegaDonut сказал:

I say, screw it, and add in this:

New Mod:  Explosive bullets.  Hitscan bullets have a 30/60/90% chance to do an aoe explosion for 15/30/45% of weapon damage with a radius of 3/6/9 meters, reduce max ammo by 10/20/30% or something.   

At least then I can use my beloved Tibby P and Opticor Vandal without feeling like I am gimping myself for style points.   DE is ok with aoe being king?  Lets go all in and make every weapon AOE.  

While it PARTIALLY band-aids the symptom, it do nothing with root of disease. If you give AoE to rifle it won’t magically became OP. There is reason why Chakkhurr is probably the best rifle. And that reasons isn’t inhale AoE(but it’s important too), it’s monstrous stats of this weapon that makes it competitive. No Jokes, 50% base crit and huge base damage (and recently 100% impact proc also became a thing too) makes it very viable .

Nice guns like Grinlok,Kuva Hind, Tiberon , Nagatanka even Kuva Quartakk can’t competite even stats-wise. 

Those weapons would be good if we had enemies with some flat damage reduction, so weapons with low damage but high firerate would be only best way to deal with it. Something like liches have, but not broken (in terms of not hard, but literally broken thing).

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The New Primary/Secondary Gun Arcanes don't help this situation

Merciless rewards getting as many kills simultaneously as possible - rewards AoE weapons much more than single targets.

and No, Deadhead is not the same level for non-AoE. For one it overlooks status procs, Bullet-hose status spam weapons are getting left behind.

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16 hours ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

AoE beam weapons like amprex

Since when has the Amprex ever been an AOE weapon, it's a single target weapon. The meta for Amprex was that it could strip armor completely in a few seconds. Never did my Amprex ever act like an AOE weapon.

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5 часов назад, (XBOX)Rez090 сказал:

Since when has the Amprex ever been an AOE weapon, it's a single target weapon. The meta for Amprex was that it could strip armor completely in a few seconds. Never did my Amprex ever act like an AOE weapon.

Nukor , Larkspur are single-target guns too , in this case.

Edited by SpiritTeA
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Give guns a loot bonus based on their type. AoE guns stay as they are. Automatics and shotguns are the next tier. Semi-autos occupy the tier after that. There might be a final tier after that for sniper rifles. And then you put in a separate multiplier on top of that for precision headshot kills.

 

Basically, if you headshot someone with a sniper rifle, they should almost always drop an O2 canister. The goal is to bring the total amount of drops attained by killing with different weapon classes closer together, and maybe even make the slower firing, single target guns get a little more, because they're suffering from the opportunity cost of not being able to remain as safe, due to not clearing out sources of incoming damage.

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I love the new arcanes and galvanized mods, but I agree, the over the top AoE spam meta right now is neither fun, nor in any way challenging. Joined a few public random Kuva fortress missions yesterday, and pretty much every group had at least two guys with fully maxed-out AoE weapons just nuking entire spawns in a second or two. I don't mind everything getting turned to atoms in random crappy low-level missions, but once you reach a certain level, maybe the time to kill should no longer be instant? I feel they're a bit overtuned right now.

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