The impact AoE nerf could have

[Venus-Venera]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb ChaoticEdge:

I may and may not have solution for ppl complain about the nerf of AoE and how much tragic overkill by the players using weapons, frames and so on stuff that 1 hit kill everything, well if we want to stop the nerf, I guess we can say buff the enemies, but your going say "Sir are you mad?  We already have steel path and already made it hard it just players can't get good and we developed best build deal with such toy."  I understand buffing the enemies is not answer but what if that is an "addition" which it would consider a "buff" but what is this addition that won't screw the player over with but able balance things out?  Well, like I say it "may not" be a solution but DE having that PTSD being "All Might" copies in the battlefield so I am writing minor suggestions but then again everyone probably going ignore it like they did my last suggestion post trying help the game.

The Suggestion:

1.  Enemies has chance self-rez

• an enemy has a chance depending where they are hit or not being slaughter meat grinder, they have a chance to amputate their missing limbs and instance replace their part with robotic limbs or inject adrenaline into themselves or they inject self regeneration and this phase cannot be interrupt sort of like the boss or grineer who has the pole arm
• the infested will have different version by "consuming" their own fallen brother/sister because they are infested (what else they are going do, stand there do nothing being limbless?) to regenerate their missing limbs but infested has a chance to survived AoE dmg by implanting spore that will grow matter in seconds like how 1 unit does that but doesn't spread seeds all over the place for it spread 1 seed and be put immortal statement
• possible that enemy who don't have a chance but has tiny of hp will try kamikaze you with itself like the explosive infested which I believed anyone can pull the pin and hear the beeping noise of a bomb will or might surprised the player.
• the enemies has 5-15% chance surviving

      2.  Gear negate-tor

• its a device that is use short time use, it is like captin vor's bubble but tempory in seconds, when a troops sees or has that hint to use the negate-tor which these are few devices for it will be a bubble dome like nullifyer but in the field giving temporary immunity
• negate-tor only last for 3-5 sec and it is 1 or 2 time uses so players don't nuke the enemies easily so DE don't have PTSD kicking in
• depending number of tropps only 5-10% chance of troops carrying that
• The infested get none because they are pose to be like a zombie hoard like a flood from halo

that is about it today, I won't add more suggestions because if I do, everyone is going say "hate crime" like they usually do.  also comment below should special buff should be added, tweek or not into the game.

interesting points that make gameplay much more attractive.

However, there are other important things to consider:

• why should it motivate the players? because there is no better loot. but it's all about loot and cosmetics!
• aoe weapons are mostly played by very experienced players with gear. And you don't want to chew every enemy like a Mr1 player.
• aoe weapons can't compete with something like saryn. saryn easily manages 1000 kills on sp in 5 minutes. which aoe weapons specialist can do that? I don't know any!

[Graavarg]

Just think about the following:

• when did you last fail a mission due to enemy difficulty?
• when did you last struggle to kill a specific (non-boss) enemy?
• when did you last have to stop, think and select a more enemy-specific weapon before a mission?
• when did you last do a mission where handling the mission content was the real focus, rather than speeding to extraction?
• when did you last do a co-op mission that you couldn't have handled alone?

Then turn that around, and consider a game where before reaching mid-game level content-wise:

• you seldom (if ever) fail a mission due to enemy difficulty
• you never struggle to kill (non-boss) enemies
• you don't bother selecting stuff from your arsenal because you can kill everything with what you are currently holding
• you mod and focus only on reaching the end of a mission quickly (which turns the rest of the mission from "content" to "an irritating hindrance")
• you play a co-op game, but you are so powerful you don't need your fellow Tenno for anything (and maybe even prefer playing alone)

Well, that is the quintessential "power fantasy" game alright. But is that the best/all that Warframe can be?

Then consider a Warframe where:

• you regularly fail missions due to enemy difficulty
• you have to struggle to kill a specific (non-boss) enemy
• you have to stop, think and select a more enemy-specific weapon for specific missions
• the focus of a mission is handling the content/enemies, not speeding to extraction
• co-op help from other Tenno is meaningful, even needed

Would you play that game, or do you prefer to stay in your "power fantasy"?

Because the point where you "balance" the game is hugely different, depending on if you go for "power fantasy" or "meaningful challenge".

[killerJoke66]

1 hour ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Fun enough, SP was added because we had to wait hours on endless missions in order to reach the point where the game became hard. 

Not sure if you noticed this, but with the addition of galvanized mods and weapon arcanes (a way to buff the other equipment) meta gear became better and now we have no choice other than to go an hour+ in SP in order to do harder content. 

That's exactly powercreep: enemies get buffed to withstand our power and add some difficulty to the game (aka no need to wait an hour+ to do harder content); then our gear gets buffed to take them down more easily, bringing us back to square one (now we have to play the highest difficulty for an hour+ to do harder content) then the cycle repeats.

or you could just for example , keep the enemy start difficulty as is (in high levels maybe steel path)  matching the current top gear durability , meanwhile nerfing the armor equation on eenemy so not everything is funneled into 3 skills armor strip and all slash procs , with making units that demand certain action like new eximus units and etc.

people make it seem its hard on paper its not , coincidentally we are near that stage with how DE's doing things.

You can absoultely make the game more alive and enjoyable if you design the enemies around responding to your mechanics and power level , and ofc in my hyperbole , all auto-seek hitting weapon mechanic is disabled for both the player and the enemy ai. If we realy care about making stuff 'alive' then geting rid of automated stuffs a must , unless its a cooldown ability or an energy drain one. 

Even with what i suggest im aware most players would not like that for example , im speaking from the position that if we were to care , heres how maybe we can handle the mobility and power tenno have without stripping the fun out of it and making it a bland corridor shooter with sprinting only as mobility with occasional 20 sec cooldown meh abilities.

just my honest take

[killerJoke66]

for example , how do you not delete saryn's spores meanwhile not making it automatic ?  The player now has to micro-manage their way to make sure if they want to spread the spores for damage or utility  they need to pay attention with an additional button input of sort , but giving back more power and or uitlity in return for such change.

with this sort of model you dont take toys away but reward awareness to the game state the tenno is in.

Also yes , all macro bindings are disabled no questions asked , no more afk farm shenenigans , so normal players that just want rewards wouldnt get punished for playing , tadaa 

 

[Xaero]

I don't think it's possible to avoid nerf complaints if you're going to add challenge to the game. People will call it indirect nerf.

[CosoMalvadoNG]

44 minutes ago, Xaero said:

I don't think it's possible to avoid nerf complaints if you're going to add challenge to the game. People will call it indirect nerf.

i think the same.

[Loza03]

A lot of problems come down to some serious problems in the game's core mathematics. Armour scaling is a classic example. All weapons using the same mods despite having very different parameters is another - an AoE weapon will always be better than a single target weapon of seemingly similar stats, because AoE weapons get an additional actual multiplier from number of enemies killed whilst single-target does not. On that, builds have exceedingly variable survability to the point of lacking a clear baseline for the amount of damage that's reasonable, and strong incentive to munchkin away EHP mods due to the extreme power of min-maxing. Energy as a system is either absurdly thin on the ground, or acquired in vast amounts with little to no gameplay input.

 

Fixing a lot of these would be a bunch of big nerfs, don't get me wrong, but several buffs too, and I suspect it'd make keeping things reasonable in the future easier.

[XAN3MK]

2 hours ago, Graavarg said:

Well, that is the quintessential "power fantasy" game alright. But is that the best/all that Warframe can be?

I'm just gonna quote this particular sentence from your post to address how diluted the idea of "power fantasy" is in Warframe. Warframe doesn't have a power fantasy, unless you are dealing with lv500+ Steel Path enemies, there is a gear check, at best, whether you can comfortably deal with the content or not. I don't feel powerful stomping the average Steel Path run or incursion - its a forgone conclusion, going through the motions.

"Power Fantasy" is finishing a Devil May Cry title on Dante Must Die or Hell and Hell, where you've perfected your gameplay and gameplan to such degree that you can deal with odds stacked against you or one-hit deaths comfortably and reliably for multiple hours on end. "Power Fantasy" is killing Furious Rajang in MHR: Sunbreak in ~4min, trivializing a good fight by having mastered your weapon and prepared a gameplan that lets you walk over what is essentially a quite challenging fight.

Warframe doesn't have such moments. It *can* have them, the systems are, but it has yet to use them to any considerably degree over its 10-year existence.

[lukinu_u]

Buffing enemies would never be a good solution, simply because the problem is the difference between weapons.
As hard as enemies are, if don't change weapons, you have the exact same meta. It's even worse because with higher diffuclty, you force to use it instead.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb lukinu_u:

Buffing enemies would never be a good solution, simply because the problem is the difference between weapons.
As hard as enemies are, if don't change weapons, you have the exact same meta. It's even worse because with higher diffuclty, you force to use it instead.

and rewards are the same. because why play sp when I get enough resources on normal. and here I can drive damage absurdly high. so... epic fail!

[0_The_F00l]

Hmmm , i like it as a concept. Might  eed some tweaking though.

[-EPECb-]

11 часов назад, TheArmchairThinker сказал:

No ammo mutation or ammo scavenger, no restore pads in your gear wheel, no arcane, no mods and such. There you go, grendel missions

Yes, even if they are in this wheel, now no one uses them anyway, they are simply not needed in most cases. That's the point. The game balance in all aspects of this game is at zero.

...no need to go to extremes. The proposal was clearly worded. Make it necessary so that players use these consumables more often and that’s it, you don’t need to cut anything. DE has already thoughtlessly cut some content instead of making it more interesting. Thanks, but this is no needed no more.

11 часов назад, TheArmchairThinker сказал:

You mean inability to replenish your health and ammo on need, inability to save yourself when you're knocked down, pinned or strangled, and weak human character?

I mean interaction between players. Warframe - solo game, this confirms the gameplay itself. Everyone runs haphazardly wherever they want without being afraid of anything, sometimes I ignore the very essence of the task. How about this in L4D? Completely different... in this game, you feel that without the help of a partner you will not go far, you help each other because your lives depend on it. That's the whole difference, but what. Obviously, the cooperative gameplay in L4D is much more interesting than in Warframe. INTERACTION BETWEEN PLAYERS IS REQUIRED IN A CO-OP GAME! In Warframe, this interaction is almost completely absent.

11 часов назад, TheArmchairThinker сказал:

That's not even "difficulty", just a over bloated damage that you might as well call it as 1 HP mode

I agree with this. It's exactly the same in Warframe now. The "difficulty" that I'm talking about is not to increase the damage and armor of the mobs, but to correctly set the balance in which the players will be a little more dependent on each other's help.

With the complexity that DE has gotten into the game now, many players are getting to 999lvl on endless missions (although I just refuse to understand why they do it). In other words, this is some kind of stupidity, not complexity. I see no interest in standing for hours for nothing. It's really stupid. 

20 часов назад, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 сказал:

And yet you continue to express the game is not good enough due to a direction you don't like. Dude, EVERY SINGLE YEAR there's a person like you that expresses the exact same thing, only for the game to continue to exceed the crap you all talk about. So, how do we fix this...because you guys are absolutely horrible at proving the game is going in a bad direction. Again, ALL of you guys absolutely suck at proving this. 

Some agree, some don't. This is fine. If I didn’t convince you of something, then I didn’t particularly strive for this. But still I don't see anything wrong with "throwing a couple of rocks" towards DE. As you say, there will always be dissatisfied. Well, here I am one of them, here again. This year it's my turn to give a slap to DE, which is what I'm doing.

В 12.08.2022 в 20:34, MumblesMcphatty сказал:

I love how one can take multiple multi-year breaks from this game and come back to the exact same threads on the front page. 

The main thing is that you like it. I'm happy for you. 👍👍👍

В 12.08.2022 в 14:19, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk сказал:

I don't think calling the game's content Garbage is valuable feedback, no matter how bad the state of this content might be. 

I'm not going to read the whole things because Honestly i don't care about the state of the game at this point...i just enjoy my Warframes and that's all there is to it for me

...there was a time when I myself enjoyed this game. But then some changes came due to which all the pleasure for some reason disappeared. So it goes (

 

[----Legacy----]

8 hours ago, killerJoke66 said:

or you could just for example , keep the enemy start difficulty as is (in high levels maybe steel path)  matching the current top gear durability

The issue is, as pointed is the post after the one you quoted, this would require defining what's "top gear durability", some sort of power ceiling to balance content around.

8 hours ago, killerJoke66 said:

nerfing the armor equation on eenemy so not everything is funneled into 3 skills armor strip and all slash procs , with making units that demand certain action like new eximus units and etc.

Yeah, i'm in the opinion that more engaging enemies would be great and even agree on that "nerfing the armor equation on enemies" would be a step in the right direction IF it came along a rebalance to EHP and damage scaling for both, players and enemies alike, otherwise it's just a blanket nerf to enemies, which translates into a blanket buff to players.

[killerJoke66]

4 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

The issue is, as pointed is the post after the one you quoted, this would require defining what's "top gear durability", some sort of power ceiling to balance content around.

top gear ; just out of my head , not so many weapons deal 6 million damage in one instance , or they could talk to veterans that know how to deal damage and make a formula deciding how many current weapons can reach such dps threshhold , they already sort of do those equations when making units like deimos heavy units , some of them have formulas that stop certain thresholds of power gear. 

So in conclusion we know that DE knows what top tier means at least in terms of dps , since they create units to counter measure our arsenal 
 

4 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Yeah, i'm in the opinion that more engaging enemies would be great and even agree on that "nerfing the armor equation on enemies" would be a step in the right direction IF it came along a rebalance to EHP and damage scaling for both, players and enemies alike, otherwise it's just a blanket nerf to enemies, which translates into a blanket buff to players.

I dont care about blanket nerfs to us or to the enemies , unless the formula is being carried through elegantly we are going to fall into either side of pendulum swing.

The truth of the matter is , till to this day enemy ehp on ferraite or alloyed armor enemies after a certain thereshold is absurd , if theyre gonna keep enemies beyond couple thousand levels , they should consider the formula , if DE s okay with just players brawling with max 200 level enemies , then i guess thats an option too but that requires major nerfs to multiple intricate systems that necessarily dont want or never asked for that to happen . 

Im still looking at enemy armor scaling and i see it makes us funnel into 2 main builds if you will , maybe theres three , but if such one atrribute decreases so much viability amongst ALL builds , then it has no place like it should go sorry , its just that oppressive 

[trst]

The problem with trying to buff enemies is that they have to bypass/invalidate player mechanics in order for the buff to have any effect. And the problem with that approach is that it invalidates player progression.

 

Like enemies need to be able to entirely bypass invulnerability/shield gating because we can invalidate enemy damage otherwise. And even after that they still need enough damage to have an impact vs 95% damage resistance which multiple frames can achieve.

And they need to be immune to armor stripping and CC. Else we can invalidate their health pools by removing the only stat that makes them survivable or disable them until their hp is whittled down.

But if just one approach is applied to an enemy then the other approach invalidates them all the same. Either they survive our damage but still pose no threat or they are a threat but don't live long enough to do anything.

 

Enemies do need buffs but we need our mechanics reigned in to not completely invalidate systems first.

[Lutesque]

14 hours ago, taiiat said:

making Enemies immune to Game Mechanics defeats the purpose of being a Video Game.
that is all.

Exactly....

12 hours ago, Graavarg said:

Well, that is the quintessential "power fantasy" game alright. But is that the best/all that Warframe can be?

I mean.... We are always Giving DE feedback on how to improve the experience but obviously they are interested in something entirely Different...

10 hours ago, XAN3MK said:

 

"Power Fantasy" is finishing a Devil May Cry title on Dante Must Die or Hell and Hell, where you've perfected your gameplay and gameplan to such degree that you can deal with odds stacked against you or one-hit deaths comfortably and reliably for multiple hours on end.

Actually no it isn't....

I've Watched YouTube Videos of people Playing DMC on the Hardest Difficulty and it's Exactly like Warframe... It's literally Spamming Cheese Strats.... If only one hit can Kill you then all sense Of Style and Flair Go out the Window and Whatever the Most Effective Strategy Works against a Specific enemy Gets Spammed until Mission Clear...

That's why these Videos aren't Popular because it's the most Boring thing to watch and the most Boring way to play DMC.... 

2 hours ago, trst said:

 

And they need to be immune to armor stripping and CC. Else we can invalidate their health pools by removing the only stat that makes them survivable or disable them until their hp is whittled down.

I take issue with you saying Armor makes them "Survivable" when the Truth is Armor makes them Unkillable 🤔...

2 hours ago, trst said:

But if just one approach is applied to an enemy then the other approach invalidates them all the same. Either they survive our damage but still pose no threat or they are a threat but don't live long enough to do anything.

 

Enemies do need buffs but we need our mechanics reigned in to not completely invalidate systems first.

Neither of these are ideal Solutions and I think the reason why is you are Basing them off the same Narrow Point Of View of Warframe being about only Killing Enemies..... In Nioh's Late Game this is Also what it's Design turns into because at that point Explorations and Story and all of that crap Ceases to Exist and it's literally only about Killing Enemies and it has all the same Design issues as Warframe where you invalidate game Mechanics.

The only way to Fix this is to not Make this the only way to play the Game... Because Right now... Killing is the only thing that Matters 😐...

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

10 hours ago, -EPECb- said:

Some agree, some don't. This is fine. If I didn’t convince you of something, then I didn’t particularly strive for this. But still I don't see anything wrong with "throwing a couple of rocks" towards DE. As you say, there will always be dissatisfied. Well, here I am one of them, here again. This year it's my turn to give a slap to DE, which is what I'm doing.

That's the problem: they don't need nor deserve your rocks or slaps. You've received  more than a significant level of gaming entertainment output from this free game. You're wrongfully going over the top. It's disrespectful to DE and I wish you guys learned a better way to ask for things. 

[ChaoticEdge]

20 hours ago, (PSN)IdoThea said:

Let's have every enemy with overguard. One enemy takes 15 minutes to kill. 

Enemies can one shot you. let's remove revives. If you fail mission 5 times in a row everything in your account resets you'll lose everything. 

 

ok, it isn't like we have weapons doesn't able kill things, right now I op the ghoul saw somehow just forget combo, just straight up heavy killing blow in sp and I wasn't even using Ash prime or ash.  I just simply use vortex ability and suck all the enemy in and just ghoul saw straight in the middle and waited for while to die from bleed even though they have shield, I just do another heavy hit and it doesn't take me that long to do it.  Then again, this is your opinion which there is no shaming another person who can't do it or able success worried about meta enemies

18 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

A buff to enemy survivability is still a nerf to player damage, it's all relative. All the examples you give are either interesting (like medic units) or are already being used (like gear negation), so it's not like you're asking for anything out of line or anything, but if there's a problem with AoE maybe the solution is to adjust AoE? If there's a problem with overkill maybe the solution is to reduce the overkill? Fix the problem directly instead of playing mechanical patty-cakes. Adding enemies with more mechanical depth is a worthy goal but it's not a solution to the game's powercreep. How'd it work out for Amalgam units?

correct like I said the negate gear is tempory, they can't go off abused this every time, it is tiny dome, nothing larger and it is only there for sec for I should of said additonal "they can't attack" but then again I did say it is like "captin vor immune phase" which their attack cannot do anything so basically they are stuck for stale mate for 3-5 sec and the gear is utter trash but then again you can focus killing the guy who has the gear making the whole troops to realized they are getting nuked again.  So it just tiny kink problem for player then just be done with the gear tool because they use cheap battery which they can't operate very long time because keeping it to "Lore SAKE" that the battery doesn't last long because it wasn't orokin made which their tech last very long time and no we aren't going give this to the orokin then everyone be mad seeing the gear work 5-10 time that would bring in the ppl screaming BS sign.

The Amalgam Units won't be effective fully by the gear if it is the "target on mission" because they already have gears of their own to nullyfiy player's ability which players would be even more angry if such concept works on them and that would of make them too much an immortal monster.  As again mini-bosses or bosses won't get this effect because well 1 fact of reason they are pretty powerful for someone complain about saturn 6 wolf man who wreck players like a train wreck.  As progressing details

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I'll clarified carefully, the negate-tor gear doesn't work on bosses to keep the balance intact because some the bosses already has their own personal immune phase which we all know had enough this BS immune phase already.  As again, for DE get their stop ppl who whine and complain power creeping it is exact reason why ppl r complaining from the left and right like children who crying to their parents and argue their own brothers or sisters what they wanted to go 1st.  So please, stop complaining for the moment, lets do it like proper manner as an proper adult should do properly in their job to properly argue back in civil without emotional statement how you do it like congress ppl.

Yes I understand the idea needs tweeks, but I told you it is "part solution" for there is up and down for we have to face what is "up and down" phase and take it, the wall of china wasn't built in 1 day and no suffering, there is a cost what we all do, making a weapon like prisma grakata to brrt, having throwing melee weapons go boom, making our frame going nuclear bomb.  This is only small thing, small feet as we know that some enemies want take a win and we aren't holding up to "Lore wise" and sort of oblivion whatever we go.  It just that the fact we are the power creepers ourselves the fact we build too good, that is why I am only suggest buff the enemy or we just get another copy like steel path and making their hp just dumb thick that what is point to have this mode again for I ask who want 3rd version of steel path?  I know nobody because they don't care like lunaro, it just players "Hates" efforts because remember we have splash day, the water gun day as everyone remember to hate speedy and he has majority the kills then players can do.  So the reason why I chose this buff of a version is the fact we aren't seeing what is in lore.

The Lore, the grineer if they are alive like we seen Kahl who is dedicate to sacrifice himself to blow himself up in front of the sentient's ship but fail but none of us seen a grineer determined to do the same running up even though they know they are going to die and they only have sim of hp left, that should be by fact in lore of dedication keep it by Lore what the grineer does.  So does the same, we had not seen any medic combat for yes there should have been 1, we had not seen a trooper being full support medic healing different process way instead of seeing the infested every time using healing degree just spam it but doesn't heal fast enough for I am only saying seeing a trooper willing inject adrenaline to speed up and prepare to fight it is common sense combat which it is no different from how back then where medieval knights will keep on fighting even the limbs chop off which they will use their arms, legs and head to fight them to their last breath, even in WWI and WWII they will hold their spot and make sure they are medic on that spot and fight close to their death if the soldier refuse from simple medic who just join the field and to heal them (Yes I know WWI and II has law "Not to harm medic" but ppl still can refuse medical attention for they prefer get patch up and get back to the battlefield).  As again, now today there are ppl willing go back fighting and it shouldn't be different from the future for someone prepare cyber limbs ready or some kind of drug to enhance for temporary boost then die off if they went over dose.  We are talking about what is common sense to put into the game for what would soldier do and yes I understand negate-tor gear isn't real thing but we all seen it and it has to be sci-fiction because we are living sci-fiction in the game.  This is a way keep the lore in balance between the players being way too over meta to bring it down just being meta.  I am not nerfing player if they want to keep their meta, I am only improve to be little difficult where I didn't say you can't use rev or other frames not do the jobs for you 

[-EPECb-]

4 часа назад, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 сказал:

That's the problem: they don't need nor deserve your rocks or slaps. You've received  more than a significant level of gaming entertainment output from this free game. You're wrongfully going over the top. It's disrespectful to DE and I wish you guys learned a better way to ask for things. 

It's useless to ask for anything. DE will do what they want. This has always been the case, with rare exceptions. Even if the game is free (even though I've invested enough money in this beta-test), should all players now shut up and sit quietly? For what this forum here at all?  What are you even talking about? And DE still deserved some sobering gesture. It certainly won't make them worse because of this.

[Cerikus]

Lately, there has been a huge increase of talks about power creep and generally it's understandable that power creep has purely negative connotation.

What I don't understand and I am honestly asking someone to explain that to me, why is power creep bad for Warframe, specifically.

Even though I wasn't here for the open beta, I have played Warframe for a long time and a lot, and it always seemed to me that power creep was and is the back bone on which this game and all it's updates stand. 

I am going to simplify it a lot, but:
- At the begining we started to receive prime warframes and weapons. More power.
- Then Damage 2.0 was released. More power.
- There used to be stamina. At some point the stamina was removed completelly and we got Parkour 2.0. More power.
- Then more powerful mods and weapons started to appear, Primed mods even. More power.
- At some point Second dream happened and we got focus.  More power.
- Then we got the spoiler mode. More power.
- Let's not forget that we get a new warframe evere few months that adds to our roster of powerful tools that can solve our problems. More power.
- Many reworks happened, that increased our power. Melee rework few years ago for example. More power.
- With PoE we got Amps, more power to spoiler mode. More power.
- With Deimos we got Helminth.  More power.
- We also got Voidrig. More power.
- Recently we got weapons arcanes and galvanized mods. More power.
- Throught the years we are still receiving new and powerful weapons and on top of that Kuva and Tenet weapons exist.
- The most recent focus rework made us even more powerful and some of the new arcanes are great. More power.

So in conclusion. I don't understand why power creep (a design backbone of this game) is such an issue now in 2022 and wasn't such an issue in the past. The main progression always was to give us more. More items, more weapons, more frames, more power. If we stop receiving power, what then?

I honestly don't understand it and would be grateful, if someone explained it to me.

[George_PPS]

2 hours ago, Cerikus said:

Lately, there has been a huge increase of talks about power creep and generally it's understandable that power creep has purely negative connotation.

What I don't understand and I am honestly asking someone to explain that to me, why is power creep bad for Warframe, specifically.

Even though I wasn't here for the open beta, I have played Warframe for a long time and a lot, and it always seemed to me that power creep was and is the back bone on which this game and all it's updates stand. 

I am going to simplify it a lot, but:
- At the begining we started to receive prime warframes and weapons. More power.
- Then Damage 2.0 was released. More power.
- There used to be stamina. At some point the stamina was removed completelly and we got Parkour 2.0. More power.
- Then more powerful mods and weapons started to appear, Primed mods even. More power.
- At some point Second dream happened and we got focus.  More power.
- Then we got the spoiler mode. More power.
- Let's not forget that we get a new warframe evere few months that adds to our roster of powerful tools that can solve our problems. More power.
- Many reworks happened, that increased our power. Melee rework few years ago for example. More power.
- With PoE we got Amps, more power to spoiler mode. More power.
- With Deimos we got Helminth.  More power.
- We also got Voidrig. More power.
- Recently we got weapons arcanes and galvanized mods. More power.
- Throught the years we are still receiving new and powerful weapons and on top of that Kuva and Tenet weapons exist.
- The most recent focus rework made us even more powerful and some of the new arcanes are great. More power.

So in conclusion. I don't understand why power creep (a design backbone of this game) is such an issue now in 2022 and wasn't such an issue in the past. The main progression always was to give us more. More items, more weapons, more frames, more power. If we stop receiving power, what then?

I honestly don't understand it and would be grateful, if someone explained it to me.

LOVE the list. YES many players like you and me love power creep! We also love deleting enemies fast in HUGE quantities and seeing HUGE numbers. Dev and players who like to complain SHOULD focus on WHAT NEED TO BE BUFFED if they aren't used enough instead of always trying to destroy what players have adapted to like and use to have the most fun. Constantly killing and destroying the best mechanics and the best warframes/weapons will only drive players away. 

[Merrcenary]

10 минут назад, Cerikus сказал:

So in conclusion. I don't understand why power creep (a design backbone of this game) is such an issue now in 2022 and wasn't such an issue in the past. The main progression always was to give us more. More items, more weapons, more frames, more power. If we stop receiving power, what then?

because dumb wf player base want wf to be like tarkov with realism etc without understanding that wf is a different kind of a game

[Yrkul]

Power creep makes it harder to tune content to be challenging without getting frustrating. Very few players find getting one-shot again and again, or grinding away at a mob's hitpoints for 20 minutes fun. Equally, deleting entire tiles of enemies might be fun for some, but gets old at some point.

DE have been expressing some reluctance to powercreep over the years, but for some reason keeps adding things like the helminth, Matthew mods/arcanes and Incarno weapons, that kicks the power level up even further.

Personally, I'd hope they'll flatten the power curve quite a bit, so new content is less of a mess challenge-wise. After all, it's not like they're running with a full team these days, and tune-ups will take longer.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

4 minutes ago, Yrkul said:

Equally, deleting entire tiles of enemies might be fun for some, but gets old at some point.

Over 1550 logins, thousands of hours... hasn't happened yet. Waiting for it.

[Birdframe_Prime]

::Edit:: This was merged into a larger thread when talking about Power Creep and why it's in the game. Not sure why it was merged into a thread about AoE Nerfs...

Well here's the issue.

As a constantly updating system, it absolutely must expand. It absolutely must give us more options, more weapons, more stuff in general.

As a game where the only 'progression' is based on Gear, there must be higher-ranked and higher-performing gear to incentivise actually getting that new gear.

But...

If the game's actual content doesn't keep up with that? You get power creep.

Power creep is only bad if it has no offset in the game's content.

And that's where DE has fallen short.

For example, when The New War was released, DE expanded the content with the ability to play as other factions, other characters, and the new aspect of Spoiler Mode. And in that you can see how every single enemy, every single mission, and every single goal was designed around what our player character could do and what the Devs expected us to be able to do with that. It was tightly focused and enjoyable for all that it was short-lived.

Now... that's not really possible with 50 Warframes, 400 Abilities, and even more weapons and companions, gear, specters and so on.

And I don't think it needs to be that tight, that controlled.

But it could have been better than what we have.

If Spoiler Mode was brought in and the game incorporated more enemies that could only be defeated by specifically them (like the Vomvalysts), more enemies that could only be opened to direct weapons by them (like the Kuva Guardians), and little challenges in every mission that were meant for them (something like vent areas a Warframe was too big for, and would give us an 'in' with the Vent Kids on Fortuna). That would have meant that there was content specifically for them, could be expanded on, worked with and so on. Things that the community largely decided they didn't want because Warframe is about the Warframes and the general community whined about these things not being Warframes... ugh...

If, every time DE updated the damage system and the status system, the melee system and the gun mods, they adjusted the enemies to be dealt with by each of those in a way similar to rock-paper-scissors-tape-ruler-gun style, then we wouldn't have the ridiculous bias that was brought in with 'The Sword Alone' update (which was the update that enforced the policy that every mission should be possible to complete, and every enemy possible to kill, with Melee only).

If DE stuck to hard limits on players, the way Nullifiers and Eximus now have, and expanded on it, so that there are specific enemies that need more than just raw damage to kill them, and would need to have direct or indirect crowd control (like enemies able to shield from AoE, but can be Lifted by melee ground slams)...

The AI wouldn't need improving, just enemies that we have to interact with differently than just pouring damage into them.

And the community at large would hate it, because it's no longer easy, it's no longer a power fantasy.

But it would make the game better to anyone that was actually interested in a game rather than a farming grind.