The impact AoE nerf could have

[----Legacy----]

17 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

I think you got the posts confused.

I am the one out here explained it to people - I guess including you. Until I showed up there was no goalpost, grass or even stadium.

It's obviously assumed you understand the conversation initially - especially when it's mentioned along side examples. Then, after you got the links, study up and move on.

I read the posts, you were coming from that self entitled part of the community that refuses to have things locked behind any sort of difficulty, hence would only accept difficult content as long as it doesn't get anything unique.

You got called out on it, played the Elitism card, was corrected abouts its meaning and tried narrowing down the discussion. Most of it is a few posts above even.

17 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

Everything past that is just people who can't handle it, which ironically ties directly back into the point.

Projecting much?

17 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

If I had started this conversation on a discord server you were mod on or in a game with vote-kick, I mean you know it.

That's power abuse, not elitism.

If i had mod permissions it's because -in the first place- whoever gave them to me knows i won't abuse them to arbitrarily mute, kick or ban people when i run out of arguments in the middle of a discussion, and would most likely lose said perms for doing so.

Elitism would be more on the lines of "you need to have X mastery and Y hours played to be accepted on my clan", "can't join this hunt with less than Z hydrolyst captures", "you're wrong simply because (i assume) you haven't read the links i sent", etc.

[Surbusken]

5 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

...

Gibberish.

 

[----Legacy----]

8 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

Gibberish.

What a mature way to handle a discussion. I mean, not even a counterpoint of why? I guess you ran out of arguments after being called out on your nonsense. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Surbusken]

Just now, ----Legacy---- said:

Not even a counterpoint of why? I guess you ran out of arguments after being called out on your own confussion ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

You hadn't heard of elitism and now you blame me for it.

The point is, you are welcome. Don't mention it, my pleasure.

[----Legacy----]

Just now, Surbusken said:

 

You hadn't heard of elitism and now you blame me for it.

The point is, you are welcome. Don't mention it, my pleasure.

You confuse power abuse with elitism, but turns out that i am the one with no idea of what we're discussing.

Unless you're talking about either of its variations like "real elitism", "actual elitism", "gaming elitism", "elite elitism", "proper elitism", "political elitism", "forums elitism" and whatnot, all of which are still elitism nonetheless.

[Caliboom]

Are we seriously giving this dumb advice again?

"DUDE JUST GIMP YOURSELF SO THE GAME IS HARDER LMAO"

I don't go for meta builds and yet the game is easy as hell for me. The only """difficulty""" that exists in this game is in the form of bullet sponges (steel path and liches, for example), in other words, artificial difficulty that only makes you take longer to complete your objective, not making it actually difficult. 

[schilds]

A lot of people dress up their desire for *exclusivity* as arguments for "challenge". There are people who will genuinely step out of their comfort zone no matter what skillset is involved. These people are generally unbothered that someone else might take another path. They don't feel that it diminishes their own achievement. Then there are people who argue for the game to cater to their specific skillset, e.g. twitch vs collaboration vs endurance, because they know that on that metric they will be ranked highly. The latter type of person is less interested in being challenged than rigging the system (so to speak) to their advantage.

[Darkduprey]

Il y a 9 heures, schilds a dit :

There are people who will genuinely step out of their comfort zone no matter what skillset is involved. These people are generally unbothered that someone else might take another path. They don't feel that it diminishes their own achievement.

That's definitelly not my experience on the matter.

Watching people accomplish way too easily something you worked hard to do is naturally frustrating for most people as far as I can tell.

[Jarriaga]

23 hours ago, Lutesque said:

If that was actually True then Why is Steel Path a Ghost Town ?

 

Define "ghost town" and how do you access the total number of players who are in regular mode and the total number in TSP as to make that claim.

And where are you looking for TSP players to begin with? I never fail to get a public full squad for the dailies or for popular nodes like Kuva Survival/Disruption. Mind you, this is also true for regular mode as well in which certain nodes are a lot more active than others.

Quote

It's Not The Case... No matter which way you Slice it... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

Because you say so or do you have any data to back-up that claim?

Quote

It's Easier to Find people playing Fissures than it is to Find people doing The "Challenging" Content...

Extremely flawed comparison:

1) Fissures are available to new players. By the time they reach/beat The War Within, they have access to all tiers while TSP requires beating every single node in the entire game, which is a task on its own some players will simply opt out of. This means the player pool of Fissures is bigger by default.

2) There's no TSP Fissures, preventing players who want both from being able to participate in both actions at a time. Players are forced to leave TSP if they want to go to Fissures.

Quote

Which makes perfect sense.... DE's Definition of Challenge is Invalidating Previously Established Game Play Mechanics....

Turns out that's a real turn off for alot of people...

It's too bad DE don't want for their game to be seen as a brain-dead spam-fest. It's no wonder they take action against said playstyle. Some people will not like it, but at that point it's them vs. DE.

23 hours ago, Lutesque said:

How would They Know ? 🤔

It's easy to think something is better in Hindsight but the only Oppinion that matters is the one from the players who are actually new.... And they can't say it's better because they have no previous experience to Compare it to... 👀

"The opinion of someone who has experienced 20% of the game and can not comment on what they don't know is more important than someone who has experienced 100% of the game and can comment on the entire package".

If that's the hill you want to die on be my guest. Be sure to dig until you reach the core of the planet.

23 hours ago, Lutesque said:

And they wouldn't need to if all the useful Stuff wasn't Locked behind that same content ...

Yeah, because it's an extremely common practice for games to give you the best of the best at the early game so the rest doesn't matter as you make more progress....... Right? Doom gives you the BFG 10 minutes into the game, right?

No? Then why is it suddenly an expectation and a problem in Warframe despite the long-term consequences of nothing to make progress for? Or are you going to pretend "Mastery Foddery" is not an often-highlighted problem (New items added to the game ignored because they are not as powerful as older items, more so if they are hard to acquire or too far into progression)?

The only exceptions (Not the norm) are Souls-like games because player stats matter a lot more than weapon stats, and since they scale weapon stats based on player stats you can beat the game with the very first weapon you get. Meaning, anything past it might as well not exist. And even developers who make Souls-like games are aware that's a problem. The developers of NiOh made the Familiarity mechanic for the purpose of encouraging players not to use the same weapons over and over by capping how much familiarity a weapon gets. I can't find the interview, but it started as a regular weapon degradation mechanic. They then stopped degradation in testing and noticed players were simply not finding reasons to swap weapons, leading to Familiarity.

Lutesque, are you able to make arguments that don't flat-out ignore past precedents and examples?

Just 1.

23 hours ago, Lutesque said:

You can't make the Tool argument if you're not actually using the tools meant to Give you a Challenge....

Care to quote where DE recommends using the dragon keys when not farming corrupted mods for higher challenge? Also, shouldn't they then re-work the Decaying key to ensure it is making the game more difficult rather than make you immortal when paired with rolling guard and shield rate mods?

Which is it, Lutesque? Or are you going to try to have your cake and eat it too?

23 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Then Don't Use Them.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

Ignoring their existence doesn't negate the fact they have no place in the game in relation to their power levels. 

23 hours ago, Lutesque said:

I think it did... 🤔

Otherwise the survey would have been pointless....

It didn't. The options were:

- It should be avoided.

- Doesn't impact me.

- No opinion.

No positive answer. Thank you for showing you didn't participate on it.

23 hours ago, Lutesque said:

What does that have to Do With Hard Content ? 

Whatever DE's stance was for those Items are... Challenge has nothing to do with it.... 👀

It means DE have decided some things are best earned even if it hurts them financially. It's a direct correlation as to why the expectation of endgame content not having endgame rewards is flawed if an endgame is ever added to the game.

23 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Yeah I think you're reading into that something that isn't there.... 👀

You sure about that? Because The New War is harder than The Sacrifice, which in turn is harder than The War Within, and in turn harder than The Second Dream. The content that drops after The New War is logically expected to be harder than TNW even if it's just 1% harder, not easier.

Stage 5 in a game is naturally more difficult than stage 3 even if not by much.

23 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Not some competency Test.... That's what MR Tests are for.... And we Cheese Those Anyway....

That's another design flaw in my opinion. If you are given a competency test, you should not be given free reign as to invalidate it. DE should choose the loadout you'll use in every test, and you as the player should be the one to find a way to make it work under the limits of the DE-chosen and stats-curated loadout, which minimizes/reduces cheese as much as possible. Few people would be saying MR tests and ranks are meaningless and an indication of the size of your collection rather than your skill if that was the case.

23 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Where are you getting your Stats ? 🤔

Now this is flat-out hypocritical bad-faith BS. You never show stats and often disregard stats when presented to you, but now you question the stats someone uses? I think this is the last time I address you.

[George_PPS]

It's time to revisit this as many players struggle with Eximus enemies and increased difficulties from recent updates. For those who still want to "balance" more, you need no Arcanes. Updated list:

1. Play Solo
2. Equip just 5, 4 or even just 3 Mods for every item in your loadouts.
3. Use the weakest elemental damage types against each faction. 
  For example, equip full magnetic damage types in all weapons in Grineer missions.
4. Rank essential Mods to just 60% or **** just 20%.
5. Use ONLY the most obscure abilities of every warframe in all missions. 
6. Equip a Dragon Key
7. No Arcanes 

[fo3nixz]

12 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

It's time to revisit this as many players struggle with Eximus enemies and increased difficulties from recent updates. For those who still want to "balance" more, you need no Arcanes. Updated list:

1. Play Solo
2. Equip just 5, 4 or even just 3 Mods for every item in your loadouts.
3. Use the weakest elemental damage types against each faction. 
  For example, equip full magnetic damage types in all weapons in Grineer missions.
4. Rank essential Mods to just 60% or **** just 20%.
5. Use ONLY the most obscure abilities of every warframe in all missions. 
6. Equip a Dragon Key
7. No Arcanes 

nice suggestion but what im getting from this: try hard 101

me as 95% solo i use what i want meta/non meta in SP disruption (up till levelcap)

[DreisterDino]

Was it really necessary to dig out this Thread just to add one point to the list to get your oppinion accross once again?

We get it: Its the players job to balance the game and not the Dev's and we should just not use the Tools we are getting.

 

But you know what? Keep going! Update this Thread each time DE releases new Content and add new items we are not allowed to use if we want a balanced experience. You are making a pretty good point this way for the thing your are trying to argue against: Which means that the Devs are doing a bad Job at balancing the game and that they should address it, and that there is way too much Powercreep.

 

So, i am looking forward for the next Update of this Thread in a month or so 😉

[George_PPS]

Most of my loadouts have warframes and weapons with MULTIPLE Formas each on TOP of god tier Rivens on all my favorite weapons. I could still kill Eximus units but I am NOT a fan of this trend making the game more and more challenging. Never will be because all I want to do is to enjoy the game with the best loadouts I can build when I take a break from my work and life. 

How many percentage of the players are really that hardcore and want Warframe play like Elden Ring? 

Can DE simply just add a toggle button to accommodate players who really want that super hard mode at all time? Most players DO NOT APPRECIATE DIFFICULT CONTENDTS. Just look at SP missions!! Where ever SP mission I go randomly, there is ZERO player joining the same mission except daily SP missions. 

[mrhapps]

elden ring is not difficult

[Silligoose]

I have, for a long time, advocated for a separate mode in which DE addresses various imbalances properly, so as to present a balanced, challenging endgame.

Due to this mode being catered for the challenge-seekers, DE can focus more on required balanced changes and worry less about non-challenge seeking player sentiment.

With proper balance:

• No more convoluted damage attenuation formulas required for balance
• No requirement for arbitrary cc immunity mechanics on enemies for balance
• Varied, viable gameplay strategies and tactics available
• Gameplay in which the various gameplay mechanics build on one another, leading to greater tactical and strategical depth
• A mode in which endgame setups have actual, practical value
• A mode in which co-op again has value
• Bandaid mechanics no longer required

It is possible, it could be glorious and it could retain more players and draw more back, but I'm not longer hopeful DE really cares all that much about a balanced endgame in which core imbalances are addressed. We can dream though...

[quxier]

1 hour ago, George_PPS said:

Most players DO NOT APPRECIATE DIFFICULT CONTENDTS.

I don't want to sit there doing one mission ad infinitum as well. Even the best modes or tilesets gets boring.

[PollexMessier]

This is pretty much what steel path is. I wouldn't have even been that mad if DE put overguard in steel path only for the tryhards. And expand steel path to... actually be an option for everything which is something I would genuinely appreciate.

The problem is nothing the devs can do with this game will satisfy challenge seeking players. Without alienating the rest of their playerbase in the process. They'll always complain it's too easy. There's no such thing as "hard enough" for them. Which is why DE really needs to just stop trying with them. Cus it never makes them happy and it always pisses off everyone else.

 

On 2022-05-29 at 10:26 AM, mrhapps said:

elden ring is not difficult

I think the point they're making with that is the try hards challenge seekers have been CONSTANTLY bringing up elden ring in these forums since it came out when discussing challenge with this game, and it's infuriating.

Are FromSoftware's "soulslike" games a beacon of how to do challenge well? Yes. Does their style of doing that apply to a game that's in an entirely different genre, and target demographic? Absolutely not. It just shows how little they care about anything other than the game being challenging for them. Which is an impossible bar to set.

[BDMblue]

11 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

I think the point they're making with that is the try hards challenge seekers have been CONSTANTLY bringing up elden ring in these forums since it came out when discussing challenge with this game, and it's infuriating.

Are FromSoftware's "soulslike" games a beacon of how to do challenge well? Yes. Does their style of doing that apply to a game that's in an entirely different genre, and target demographic? Absolutely not. It just shows how little they care about anything other than the game being challenging for them. Which is an impossible bar to set.

You need to look at every player who brings up elden ring. They are all using it as a straw man so they don’t have to deal with a true argument. This thread is not an exception to that rule.

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

23 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

I think the point they're making with that is the try hards challenge seekers have been CONSTANTLY bringing up elden ring in these forums since it came out when discussing challenge with this game, and it's infuriating

I only see dark souls being mentioned only by people that think the game is difficult or say that others want the game to be like dark souls, people that want the game to not be a snoozefest don't want it to be dark souls just engaging

[Yamazuki]

Due to the nature of games having to be completed, they're always going to be a horrible source for a "challenge" once you've played enough of them. I remember when games felt difficult across multiple different genres ages ago... Now? Yeah, that isn't the case. When you do a task often enough, it becomes extremely easy to do

All that really maters is whether the gameplay and repetition is enjoyable. This focus on "difficulty" is an impossible thing to satisfy even if the game were "balanced". People like to live in their delusions claiming the game will be "difficult" if our damage is nerfed to the ground. 

People also like throwing the word "engaging" around as if it means anything. Taking 30-60 seconds to take a single enemy down doesn't make it more engaging than taking it down in 1 second. Eidolons are some of the least "engaging" enemies in the game for me, and they aren't defeated upon spawn.

[XzWasPzX]

hace 56 minutos, quxier dijo:

I don't want to sit there doing one mission ad infinitum as well. Even the best modes or tilesets gets boring.

I was thinking how engaging would be for example to have darker environments with infested, to make them more terryfying. Simply to play a lil with environment lights. And somehow every faction could have a more adequate lights environment. The  uniformity "anti-terror" or "anti-fun" gets boring fast.

[Xaero]

And what if... it's actually DE's vision and not because of complaining players?!!! :OOOOO

[kinoko_takenoko]

What was needed was a Steel Path with no special rewards.
Without the special rewards, the Steel Path could be as difficult as anyone wanted it to be, but with so many special rewards, it could no longer be made challenging for those who wanted it to be.

But if you just want to make it really challenging, there is already a way to "voluntarily remove mods", right?

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

2 hours ago, George_PPS said:

 

Can DE simply just add a toggle button

 

I agree

the button to activate Steel Path stupidly overcomplicated, especially on Controllers.

You have to 'cursor' over the icon, then a pop-up menu appears, and you have to 'cursor drag' to the other icon and press it.

!!a pop-up menu!! for a 2-option toggle!!! what is is mickey mouse garbage???

just make it a Single Button Press. clicking the icon just does a straight toggle, no fancy UI flash.

[(PSN)IdoThea]

1 hour ago, PollexMessier said:

The problem is nothing the devs can do with this game will satisfy challenge seeking players. Without alienating the rest of their playerbase in the process. They'll always complain it's too easy. There's no such thing as "hard enough" for them. Which is why DE really needs to just stop trying with them. Cus it never makes them happy and it always pisses off everyone else.

Problem also is that they usually say it's wrong kind of hard like enemies are bullet sponges which I kind of agree but they were ones asking for harder content? 

Warframe simply don't have proper dodge mechanism etc. so we then have invincibility abilities or using operator kind of like life boat when taking a lot of damage etc. because there isn't way to dodge incoming damage. 

Usually hard games have dodging system where if you time those moves right you can avoid attacks. Something like Dark Souls series can be played without taking single hit but it takes extreme skill.