Take a hit DE

[xcrimsonlegendx]

22 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

The ammo changes have largely changed how players should be playing the game. If you are only using your cernos and have no ammo supply items then you are expected to run out of ammo (assuming you also don't have ammo mutation). 

Personally I don't find the changes problematic at all, but then again I use ammo mutation and don't mind swapping weapons if needed. Ammo capacity is something people should be modding for now. Weapons that run out of ammo quickly should probably have a max ammo mod equipped or ammo mutation. 

I get why a lot of people are trolling the reviews and whining like spoiled children over these changes, but personally I don't mind them one bit. Warframe has felt stale for a long time and having to rethink my strategies is a nice change of pace.

In a bow only sortie its kinda hard to change to your secondary the way the devs want you to. lol

[schilds]

This is not the first time DE has reworked a fundamental game system and shaken up the whole meta, and it won't be the last. It's not the end of the world. Adapt, adjust, try something different. Avoid getting attached to one particular playstyle in the future.

DE would easily owe me 100 forma if I were to bother making that kind of calculation :-P.

In any case, it's still possible to build for AoE spam if you want.

[Leqesai]

3 minutes ago, xcrimsonlegendx said:

In a bow only sortie its kinda hard to change to your secondary the way the devs want you to. lol

Problems have solutions. Always have.

[Cody]

5 hours ago, schilds said:

This is not the first time DE has reworked a fundamental game system and shaken up the whole meta, and it won't be the last. It's not the end of the world. Adapt, adjust, try something different. Avoid getting attached to one particular playstyle in the future.

DE would easily owe me 100 forma if I were to bother making that kind of calculation :-P.

In any case, it's still possible to build for AoE spam if you want.

I'm assuming this is in response to my comment? you could have quoted me. 

5 hours ago, Cody said:

I'm not mad at the AoE nerf precisely,

 

5 hours ago, Cody said:

worries me about nerfs that could come to things not even mentioned yet that i do actually care about.

note that things is meant as plural. meaning more than one.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

On 2022-09-10 at 12:42 AM, PrimalordialBob said:

Coincidentally I uninstalled the game today as well. This little post was a sort of 'last hurrah'/rant. And yes, it does seem like DE is having a mid life crisis. They just can't decide if they want to be a fast paced hoard shooter or a slow paced single target.

 

On 2022-09-10 at 1:18 AM, scorpiox81 said:

im thinking on uninstalling as well....it was really a fun 3 months with Wukong + Zarr -> yeapp....u guys really help me  out when i was kinda weak against the minions

Am thinking going back to real First person shooter, e.g. call of duty...etc

 

On 2022-09-10 at 3:48 AM, Shade_Mist said:

I have more than enough hard disk space so no need to uninstall but I have not logged in after getting the free frame. Once I tried out the changes I had no interest even trying out the new mission. I will give it a week or so and see if they care about us players but from what I read in the forums they rather cut off their nose to spite their face before saying they were wrong. I really loved the game and pretty much logged in to play every day but I am afraid that is gone,

 

On 2022-09-10 at 4:49 AM, (PSN)ToXicChaoS87 said:

 

Shame i know alot of people that have already uninstalled, haven't uninstalled the game myself yet waiting to see how the devs handle all this, will i be spending money on this game again, highly doubtful. 

[SneakyErvin]

14 hours ago, MqToasty said:

Where on earth did I make that claim?  Here, let me lay out a hypothetical scenario for you so maybe you can understand this:

A player reaches the midgame in the past year.  They played Arbis to collect and level a full set of Primary Galvanized Mods so they can build a viable KZarr for SP.  They use the KZarr to push into SP.  This update drops and they cannot progress in SP anymore because they run out of ammo.  They now have to go back and farm a KNukor, play a bunch of Arbis again to farm a set of Secondary Galvanized Mods, farm more Endo until they can rank up all the Secondary mods to support that KNukor.  They probably even need to farm some Forma and a bunch of affinity to get the KNukor ranked up and viable.  And guess what?  Maybe even this isn't good enough to supplement their KZarr and they have to go back and farm for a set of melee weapons.

They had plans for SP.  Maybe they were going to farm a max-ranked Secondary Arcane so they can build a good Secondary.  Maybe they were planning to farm some Steel Essence so they can get an Umbra forma and max out their favorite frame.  But now their plans have been pushed back for at least a few weeks as they can no longer farm SP and start wondering if this game is still worth the effort, and if anything they farm now will get nerfed in the future.  Is this this hard to understand?

Why are you demonizing the players who are hit by this update?  Between your baseless accusation that they "very likely tried to hitch a ride with others" and the other, actual mid-game player's account about the struggles they are facing when soloing SP, I believe theirs.

That is the thing that doesnt add up. If they have all those items, there is no reason why they should run out of ammo on something like KZarr. Because we also have those same items and dont run out. We dont have anything extra to tip the scales to a point where 10 ammo isnt enough. We have a very small benefit by having potential access to some higher elemental mods they dont, but that depends on their Baro luck really. But not to the point where ammo is a concern. If it was, we'd also need to be in a place where ammo is near depleted constantly, but that isnt what it looks like. We practically empty the "magazine", reload 5 ammo and are back to full ammo pool the next second. If we unload blindly we may run out since we dont kill enything.

[(PSN)ToXicChaoS87]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

 

 

 

Insightful dude.

2 hours ago, Dunkelheit said:

There is absolutely no reason to adapt, nothing really changed. If I would type out what I think about the people that open thread after thread after thread and I would be banned from the forums.

If you try to get into discussions, you can write what you want, you can challenge them, counter their arguments, but the more and the better you argue, the higher the probability that they will just ignore you and/or open the next thread.

And they all did not even try it out. Otherwise they would find out that nothing changed, AOE meta is still dominant. Like that guy who was complaining that his Daikyu only had one arrow in the magazine 😁

I mean there was some people that kept constantly moaning about aoe, devs change it and the people that were perfectly happy with it all suddenly start to speak up omg what a shock. lol. 

I wasn't even using the main offending weapons, do i agree with devs telling people how they should play? nope. was i pissed at the changes to ammo and wukong? yes. i just recently returned back to the game spent money to get monkey prime, catch up on the mods and multi forma it, and chucked my umbra forma in it, then they gut his 1, i was using phantasma with the clone after the changes he would chew threw the entire ammo pool in no time, and the past couple days his 1 just isn't working for me and some others, he will stand there and do nothing even while ordering him to attack, dismissing and re summoning does not help.

and true aoe still just as good, just use other things can still clear perfectly fine with glaive prime, if they nerf that, i can semi afk crouch spam with octavia, nerf that well, mesa, nerf that spam 4 styanax list goes on, at the end of the day devs can change all they want the majority will always go with the most efficient at clearing large amounts of enemies at once in the least amount of time.   

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

That fact that people in this thread are uninstalling over this kinda proves how bad the AoE meta was.

They become slaves to the meta so much that swapping to a secondary or melee when you run out of ammo or opening crate/lockers for ammo are too much for them to handle that they go and review bomb the game unjustly or loudly proclaim they unistall the game to people who don't care.

I've been messing with alot of the weapons by hitting randomize on my spin the wheel loadout and still have yet to run out of ammo and just makes me think what are these people doing wrong? Are they still running 1 weapon despite have slots for 2 more? The only weapon infound problems isnthe fulmin which i just went over the ammo feedback and suggest it consumes 5 instead of 10 a shot to fit with the recharge.

[Numerikuu]

5 hours ago, xcrimsonlegendx said:

In a bow only sortie its kinda hard to change to your secondary the way the devs want you to. lol

Nataruk says hi.

[Jarriaga]

8 hours ago, OniDax said:

If I may bluntly ask, why are you so opposed to seeing the core gameplay improved?

How are we defining improvements though? To me, the game was made actually worse in 2020 when self-damage was removed due to player demand and a significant portion of the community started using AoE shotguns eventually leading to the Veil Breaker nerfs. Thus, I see VB as an improvement because it partially returns the game back to the pre-2020 AoE status.

Same goes for melee: How do you make it deeper and more than a Dynasty Warriors clone in a horde game to improve it? I regularly play Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, Metal Gear Rising and Ninja Gaiden Black and can not envision a melee combat loop of 20 hit combos per enemy working in Warframe. Which horde game can you reference as one with a deeper melee system WF could learn a thing or 2 from?

This applies to the definition of mastery fodder as well. In which game other than Souls games (Because stats are tied to your character and always scale the weapon) is the very first weapon viable up the late game and not expected/designed to be replaced with higher-level gear? This has been a standard progression system ever since the very first Final Fantasy in NES, and DE are publicly on record indicating a weapon's general performance ballpark correlates to its MR and thus MR1 weapons are plain and simply not meant to compete with MR11 weapons in any way, shape, or form. On that logic, how is an MR2 weapon mastery fodder if it's placed extremely early into the game if starting with a new account from scratch? Yes, it is useless for a high MR player but the rank and placement should be judged on its own ("Is that performance level appropriate for a new account considering where the weapon was placed? Y/N?

 

[--END--Rikutatis]

Goodness, reading some of the posts in this thread made my IQ drop by a few dozen points. I'm not usually on the toxic side, but you AFK AoE spammers represent everything that has been wrong with this game for YEARS now, and now that DE finally tries to crawl out of this hole you guys review bomb the game to hold Rebbeca hostage? LOL. How low this community has fallen from when I started playing....

[MechNexus]

5 minutes ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

Goodness, reading some of the posts in this thread made my IQ drop by a few dozen points. I'm not usually on the toxic side, but you AFK AoE spammers represent everything that has been wrong with this game for YEARS now, and now that DE finally tries to crawl out of this hole you guys review bomb the game to hold Rebbeca hostage? LOL. How low this community has fallen from when I started playing....

Nah, people have thrown tantrums like this when other cheese strats got nerfed in the past. Granted, this one seems bigger, but we didn't have a wider playerbase nor the concept of reviewbombing back then.

[MqToasty]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That is the thing that doesnt add up. If they have all those items, there is no reason why they should run out of ammo on something like KZarr. Because we also have those same items and dont run out. We dont have anything extra to tip the scales to a point where 10 ammo isnt enough. We have a very small benefit by having potential access to some higher elemental mods they dont, but that depends on their Baro luck really. But not to the point where ammo is a concern. If it was, we'd also need to be in a place where ammo is near depleted constantly, but that isnt what it looks like. We practically empty the "magazine", reload 5 ammo and are back to full ammo pool the next second. If we unload blindly we may run out since we dont kill enything.

And yet they do.  If you read the mid-game player's post from a few pages back, they were working on soloing Steel Path with Wukong + KZarr.  Yet after this update, between the clone using ammo and the abundance of enemies, he runs out and is SOL.

I cannot speak for KZarr specifically because I never liked the weapon and never worked on it (the slots are unlocked, but it's not even fused to +60% -- and this is despite me having a riven for it).  But I definitely ran out of ammo multiple times on my Vermisplicer primary during the Archon Sortie Defense mission.  Of course, it didn't affect me much because I just whipped out my secondary or melee, killed a few rounds of enemies, and switched back when I picked up some Primary Ammo.  Yet this, I suspect, is exactly what many mid-game players do not have the luxury of doing.  While you and I can easily go into a mission with 3 maxed weapons and kill equally comfortably with any one of them, such is not the case for players who are still working their way through the game.

[OniDax]

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

How are we defining improvements though? To me, the game was made actually worse in 2020 when self-damage was removed due to player demand and a significant portion of the community started using AoE shotguns eventually leading to the Veil Breaker nerfs. Thus, I see VB as an improvement because it partially returns the game back to the pre-2020 AoE status.

Same goes for melee: How do you make it deeper and more than a Dynasty Warriors clone in a horde game to improve it? I regularly play Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, Metal Gear Rising and Ninja Gaiden Black and can not envision a melee combat loop of 20 hit combos per enemy working in Warframe. Which horde game can you reference as one with a deeper melee system WF could learn a thing or 2 from?

This applies to the definition of mastery fodder as well. In which game other than Souls games (Because stats are tied to your character and always scale the weapon) is the very first weapon viable up the late game and not expected/designed to be replaced with higher-level gear? This has been a standard progression system ever since the very first Final Fantasy in NES, and DE are publicly on record indicating a weapon's general performance ballpark correlates to its MR and thus MR1 weapons are plain and simply not meant to compete with MR11 weapons in any way, shape, or form. On that logic, how is an MR2 weapon mastery fodder if it's placed extremely early into the game if starting with a new account from scratch? Yes, it is useless for a high MR player but the rank and placement should be judged on its own ("Is that performance level appropriate for a new account considering where the weapon was placed? Y/N?

 

Is this just a bunch of random topics based on some other conversation you had with someone else? Because it's quite frankly not even close to what I'm talking about or the games I'm talking about. First of all, I don't care about AOE weapons and the nerf. I don't use AOE weapons, so that's irrelevant to me. Regarding melee, I'm not talking about Dynasty Warriors, Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, Metal Gear Rising, or Ninja Gaiden Black, as I've never played those games. I don't want a melee system with a combo loop of 20 hit combos per enemy and that's not at all what I said. I'm thinking more of Ghost of Tsushima and For Honor's non-dueling melee stance combos when it comes to melee vs melee gameplay. Basically, you're taking Warframe's existing melee combat system, making stances flow more smoothly, and then adding a system where melee enemies will attack you with heavy attacks, and sometimes block your light attacks. It's basically the same core gameplay, but adding a blocking element on the part of melee enemies so that melee vs melee combat feels a bit more engaging.

As for mastery fodder, my only point is that gameplay should be more appealing than just collecting stuff in the game (a lot of which, imo, is mastery fodder because it's redundant or forgettable, either due to function or visuals - even stuff added later to the game).

[MechNexus]

28 minutes ago, MqToasty said:

And yet they do.  If you read the mid-game player's post from a few pages back, they were working on soloing Steel Path with Wukong + KZarr.  Yet after this update, between the clone using ammo and the abundance of enemies, he runs out and is SOL.

I cannot speak for KZarr specifically because I never liked the weapon and never worked on it (the slots are unlocked, but it's not even fused to +60% -- and this is despite me having a riven for it).  But I definitely ran out of ammo multiple times on my Vermisplicer primary during the Archon Sortie Defense mission.  Of course, it didn't affect me much because I just whipped out my secondary or melee, killed a few rounds of enemies, and switched back when I picked up some Primary Ammo.  Yet this, I suspect, is exactly what many mid-game players do not have the luxury of doing.  While you and I can easily go into a mission with 3 maxed weapons and kill equally comfortably with any one of them, such is not the case for players who are still working their way through the game.

If their only steel path capable weapon is a KZarr they're not ready for steel path.

[MqToasty]

1 minute ago, MechNexus said:

If their only steel path capable weapon is a KZarr they're not ready for steel path.

So you say.  My only regular Star Chart capable primary was the Hek until well after I cleared it.  I guess I'm just not ready for the game, then?

[drnlmza]

3 minutes ago, MqToasty said:

 While you and I can easily go into a mission with 3 maxed weapons and kill equally comfortably with any one of them, such is not the case for players who are still working their way through the game.

While having multiple good weapons does require work, the game hands the player some of the better melee weapons available via various quests, a couple of them complete with catalysts and slots. Not having at least some melee options by the time a players doing steel path content really shouldn't be a thing. Wukong can even stun enemies via cloud walker to use finishers (although it's finicky because of the short stun duration), which can allow even fairly mediocre melee builds to kill stuff.

 

There are also enough places in the game where you can't use your primary weapon (carrying datamasses, power cells, etc) that not investing in at least one secondary also strikes me as strange, although this is less relevant with Wukong.

[MechNexus]

1 minute ago, MqToasty said:

So you say.  My only regular Star Chart capable primary was the Hek until well after I cleared it.  I guess I'm just not ready for the game, then?

How in the hell was the Hek your only starchart capable primary? I'm calling BS on this.

[MqToasty]

1 minute ago, MechNexus said:

How in the hell was the Hek your only starchart capable primary? I'm calling BS on this.

Melee was king when I started two years ago, and I preferred it overwhelmingly.  If memory serves right, by the end of the Star Chart I only potato'd two primary weapons: a Hek and a Lanka.  The Hek for gun-only bosses (Sargus Ruk and Raptors), and the Lanka for Eidolons.  In fact, I'm not even sure the Hek is Star Chart capable.  I'm pretty sure I would not have survived if it was all I carried into the last leg of the Void.

[Mediloric]

Alright, I'll bite.

12 hours ago, OniDax said:

I just want every element to be better. Adding additional mechanics to gunplay like ADS and expanding melee combat to make melee combat vs melee enemies something deeper than just basic hack and slash isn't turning Warframe into a different game, no more than adding Archwings, Lunaro, Plains of Eidolon, Railjack, Veilbreaker, and a Rogue-lite update in Duviri Paradox has turned/will turn it into a different game.

I get that, but your suggestions are asking for a completely different system across everything! A massive overhaul that really should be done at the beginning of development, not at this stage where it's completely live and being constantly modified.

It's not just highly unlikely that'd happen, I'd even go far as to say it's impossible right now IMHO*. Anything that remotely involves changing a system so integrated into the architecture of Warframe, is just going to cause a lot more problems than anything. 

Take a look at the current update. Aside from the ammo system bugs, the smaller changes we've had generated quite sizeable issues and unexpected knock on effects. Can you imagine what a overhaul would do? 

Would it be great to add such a system as you suggest? Absolutely! If it was done early on and could be refined and improved during the games early days.

But if you add that now, it'd be a nightmare! Bugs, Breaking everything else, Can't even imagine the intense knock on effect it would have on every other system. 

*I say impossible, due to the fact DE would really get nothing out of this, to me no matter what they add people would still play, unless that suddenly doesn't happen I highly doubt such changes will either. I'd love to be wrong, I really do! But in my experience any time a Live service game does that sort of change, it never works out. 

12 hours ago, OniDax said:

If I may bluntly ask, why are you so opposed to seeing the core gameplay improved? 

Careful, you're making a really bad assumption about me already. Not just a few either here, wow. 

I'll simplify my original question to you: "If you are not enjoying the game for its current systems, why are you playing it?" And you've not even directly answered that, just gave a drull speech in this paragraph about how I am so directly against change. 

You could not be further from the truth, making baseless assumptions on knowing nothing about me or what I want to see, really doesn't do you any favors. 

But I'll do you one by going over parts of what you said. I don't know if I should though, being as you clearly know my own stance on things better than I do! 

12 hours ago, OniDax said:

Is it that it would expose how lacking Warframe's mechanics currently are when compared to other games, and therefore expose cracks in the perception of DE's perfection?

It's stuff like this that just makes me ask the question again. "If you are not enjoying the game for its current systems, why are you playing it?" 

But if you're asking me if Warframe mechanics are lacking or mediocre compared to to other games however, my answer would be yes and no. 

There are big glaring problems that need to be addressed, systems that are uncooked and felt abandoned, areas that should have been improved and taken further but left for another island. But despite all that, I still enjoy playing the game even with my misgivings. But I assure you, I've no illusion that DE has made perfection, far from it. I'm quite outspoken when it comes to stuff I disagree with and there are a lot.

12 hours ago, OniDax said:

The argument you present here is the same argument people made against Warframe having an open world years before DE added Plains of Eidolon.

Quite the assumption. I'm not making a argument, I WAS asking out of general curiosity directly to you and only you. You're the one trying to pervert it into something else from a really innocent question.

Which you still not answered by the way. 

12 hours ago, OniDax said:

People like you were against it because, in their view, it was turning Warframe into a different game. They didn't want any expansion to the core Warframe gameplay experience only because DE themselves hadn't proposed it. The moment Plains of Eidolon was revealed and released, the same people started praising DE and saying "We didn't know we wanted open world until DE revealed PoE." That's how a lot of diehard DE fans act every time someone proposes improving or expanding something about Warframe. You oppose it, make excuses for why it isn't needed or wanted, and then when DE does it, you praise it as though it's some industry-shaking innovation.

"People like me" Lovely way to start. 

Let me once again clean up your assumption of me: I believed that Open Worlds and by that extent, Plains of Eidolon was the most logical direction for Warframe to take. But I didn't even think about it till it was revealed like "Oh damn, that's actually a good idea." 

I can't be against a change that I wasn't even aware of BEFORE it was announced. I wasn't even that frequent on the forums to discuss any sort of Open World idea at that time to say anything. Thought about it? maybe. But I couldn't even fathom the form a Open World would take on Warframe till the reveal. 

Was I skeptical though? Absolutely. It was such a large undertaking with so many factors that could (and have) gone wrong. But it happened with various success. 

Was it perfect? No. I don't think they got PoE nor Orb Valis right in my opinion. But was it a good step to take? Damn right it was.

But if you're trying to prove some hypocrisy, I'm really one of the worse people to have targeted.

12 hours ago, OniDax said:

Let me give you just one example: When Steve was showing off the Earth remaster years ago, a lot of Warframe players complained about it. Their chief complaint: there's no reason to go back to Earth because it offers them nothing. It wasn't enough that they would get to experience Warframe's gameplay in a visually-remastered, more immersive environment. And why? Because most people get bored of Warframe's gameplay quickly unless they have something new to collect and for which to grind. The gameplay is not satisfying enough to keep people interested when there are no more rewards to acquire; the content is not satisfying enough to keep people interested when it has no more rewards to offer

 I will give you this: That is a good example and it's a correct observation too. 

From my position, the PoE remaster was both needed... and unneeded? Sure it was pretty to look at, and it brought some well needed adjustments to the economy, but as you point out: little else.

There wasn't really a need to go back for a player that has progressed past PoE, because as you said there was no or little to no rewards to collect outside of a weapon and a few other bits of pieces. 

I get the feeling this was more directed for new players? Because correct if I'm wrong, the Plains are the first open world they'll see? It'd be a good wow factor for them. 

Was it a failing on DEs part? Somewhat. Ideally the remaster should have added new content or sections to the Plains for people who already finished that content. It was the right time for it. But sadly that didn't happen and even some of the more... frustrating issues remained. But if it was to achieve a better experience for new players then I guess it was a success? I'd argue otherwise but I don't know DE's goals for that update nor direction.

Wasted on their part IMHO. But as I mentioned just before, I get the feeling this update wasn't really directed at me. That sucks yes, but it does happen. 

12 hours ago, OniDax said:

Again, I don't think there's any single element of Warframe's core gameplay that is the best in the industry: not animations, not sound design, not AI behavior, not graphic quality, not texture resolution, not visual effects.

Neither do I.  

But I don't think anyone can really claim that either, and if they do they're incredibly foolish as that stance never lasts. 

If you're asking me: I'd agree with you, but not for the same reasons. Warframe is not the best in any of those categories to me. But I still find myself enjoying what it offers as it appeals to me directly.

Is the sound perfect? No, but I liked the approach the sound team took to ambiance and music. I even own some of the OST because I liked it so much. 

Are the animations perfect? No, the facial animations for example, are quite hideous in my opinion. But there is something quite charming about the idles, the NPC movements, even just something so silly as a Kubrow doing a stretch. 

Do you see what I'm getting at?

12 hours ago, OniDax said:

If that's what makes Warframe Warframe then that's a sad commentary on Digital Extremes.

And thus we come full circle back to my question: "If you are not enjoying the game for its current systems, why are you playing it?

I ask this now because after reading and trying to understand it from your point of view, I end up with the same conclusion as I did after reading your previous post. Are you ever going to be happy with what Warframe does right now?"

And I don't think you will. And yes that is a assumption, but I think it's a right one.

Nearly everything you pointed out, another game does better or it's never enough for your standards, or you don't like a direction DE took a update. It's like nothing they can do will ever be enough. 

You're not wrong for thinking that exactly. As I've mentioned above I think the same in some regards too but our reasons and outcomes are completely different. If the update doesn't appeal to me, that's fine I just move on and carry on because I like what Warframe offers for me at the time. 

There is nothing wrong with having standards, nor voicing your issues with various aspects of the game for DE to hopefully see, but please try to be realistic about it.

You claim you want "every element to be better" but I don't think you can see the potential damage that will do especially now. You're not asking to improve really, you're asking to gut out a system that is I agree somewhat basic to today's standards for something complex that Warframe possibly can't support. It's not a fact of being AGAINST change. I'm all for it. But I'm trying to be real about it. Trying to see it from DEs perspective and see what they have to use. 

Something like that needs a LOT of refinement, a lot of time to be worked on, something that ideally should have been done at the START of Warframe, not 10 years later. 

If you are asking to change something at a huge level as you're asking, then why are you playing? It's clear Warframe isn't offering you what you want or maybe it has and it's run its course for you and you just want something else now which clearly Warframe can't give you.

I don't think you can convince me otherwise, You say you want change but fail to grasp that your idea of "change" is outside the scope of what the game currently offers and will likely continue to offer. 

The more you point out the facts and yes they are facts, that some games especially nowadays offer something a bit more improved then what Warframe does... will just solidifies my opinion that Warframe has run its course for you and it's time to move on.  

I'm not pushing you out, but it's clear you are not finding what you want here and honestly you're just wasting your time when you could be playing something that clearly hits the right notes for you. 

It's clearly not the case for me on a lot of aspects, and attacking me for a completely innocent question and lumping a group of people together unecessarly, doesn't give your view credit, I'd say it weakens it. 

But before you give me a load of half assumptions, can you answer my original question? 

 

 

 

[(PSN)Zero_029]

I don't really use AOE weapons. Tenet Arca Plasmor and Corinth Prime are my go to weapons (so I'm on the cusp of aoe admittedly), Tenet Cycron (CO Primer), and Nikana Prime.

But I'll say this...and it's a hot take.

Quote

Hot Take: 

"Reverse the AOE nerf but give self-damage back." 

Self-damage NEVER should have been removed in the first place. I was against it then, and I'm still against it now. 

If I shoot a Stinger missile at my feet irl, I'm not going to going backflip backwards let alone go flying backwards. (I mean...yes, I WILL go flying but not in 1 direction.)

Self-Damage balanced out explosive weapons and made players use skill and critical thinking to use them.

If they want to prevent the Chroma / Trinity exploits then make it where:

A. Self-Damage does NOT apply to their abilities. (IE: Only invoking dmg from enemies can scale the dmg multiplier.)

B. Self-Damage has an increased returns additive or does double damage to the caster/shooter. 

C. Specters, Crew Members, and Wu-clone also can be effected by Self-Damage. (IE: Slap a Bramma on them and they WILL die.)

The risk vs reward kept this in check. 

Literally no other Looter has explosive weapons not have self-damage. Not Borderlands, Tiny Tina, Division, Destiny, or hell....even Anthem.

That's my two credits.

I doubt it'll be popular because let's be honest. People ARE abusing AOE weapons and we all know it.

No matter how they spin it. The game might not "feel" 100% automated but not actually aiming, not having to parkour, run for cover, or actually aim is auto-play.

Edit:

I do want to add this little footnote.

If the horde based gameplay has become too much then DE will need to take the game in a more Destiny/Division direction.

IE: Less but significantly stronger Enemies, more mechanics to enemies, and nerfs across the entire spectrum of the game (Mods, Weapons, and frames). 

So just like when they removed self-damage we're tightrope walking on rain slick surfaces here.

[Monolake]

8 minutes ago, (PSN)Zero_029 said:

 

Self-damage NEVER should have been removed in the first place. I was against it then, and I'm still against it now. 

 

If I shoot a Stinger missile at my feet irl, I'm not going to going backflip backwards let alone go flying backwards. (I mean...yes, I WILL go flying but not in 1 direction.)

Self-Damage balanced out explosive weapons and made players use skill and critical thinking to use them.

If they want to prevent the Chroma / Trinity exploits then make it where:

A. Self-Damage does NOT apply to their abilities. (IE: Only invoking dmg from enemies can scale the dmg multiplier.)

B. Self-Damage has an increased returns additive or does double damage to the caster/shooter. 

C. Specters, Crew Members, and Wu-clone also can be effected by Self-Damage. (IE: Slap a Bramma on them and they WILL die.)

The risk vs reward kept this in check. 

Literally no other Looter has explosive weapons not have self-damage. Not Borderlands, Tiny Tina, Division, Destiny, or hell....even Anthem.

That's my two credits.

I doubt it'll be popular because let's be honest. People ARE abusing AOE weapons and we all know it.

No matter how they spin it. The game might not "feel" 100% automated but not actually aiming, not having to parkour, run for cover, or actually aim is auto-play.

You realize this would be even more dramatic hit to explosives and all the easy mode baddies would want to burn DE to the ground. Meanwhile everyone whos not clueless about the game would just switch to Revenant. Not exactly a productive approach.

And anyone crying about the current change should just be laughed out - you can still spam explosive as much as you want, just learn to mod and learn that there are more weapons than Brama (and you can still spam even Brama, its just that ammo mutation is a must now).

 

[MechNexus]

Just now, Monolake said:

(and you can still spam even Brama, its just that ammo mutation is a must now).

 

The fact that people seem to be ignoring this very obvious solution is hysterical to me - These days it's practically a free pick, especially on the weapons that got nerfed hardest as they're all Kuva/Tenet weapons.

I remember when the exilus slot didn't exist and we genuinely had to give something up to have it.

[OniDax]

  

50 minutes ago, Mediloric said:

Alright, I'll bite.

I get that, but your suggestions are asking for a completely different system across everything! A massive overhaul that really should be done at the beginning of development, not at this stage where it's completely live and being constantly modified.

It's not just highly unlikely that'd happen, I'd even go far as to say it's impossible right now IMHO*. Anything that remotely involves changing a system so integrated into the architecture of Warframe, is just going to cause a lot more problems than anything. 

Take a look at the current update. Aside from the ammo system bugs, the smaller changes we've had generated quite sizeable issues and unexpected knock on effects. Can you imagine what a overhaul would do? 

Would it be great to add such a system as you suggest? Absolutely! If it was done early on and could be refined and improved during the games early days.

But if you add that now, it'd be a nightmare! Bugs, Breaking everything else, Can't even imagine the intense knock on effect it would have on every other system. 

*I say impossible, due to the fact DE would really get nothing out of this, to me no matter what they add people would still play, unless that suddenly doesn't happen I highly doubt such changes will either. I'd love to be wrong, I really do! But in my experience any time a Live service game does that sort of change, it never works out. 

Careful, you're making a really bad assumption about me already. Not just a few either here, wow. 

I'll simplify my original question to you: "If you are not enjoying the game for its current systems, why are you playing it?" And you've not even directly answered that, just gave a drull speech in this paragraph about how I am so directly against change. 

You could not be further from the truth, making baseless assumptions on knowing nothing about me or what I want to see, really doesn't do you any favors. 

But I'll do you one by going over parts of what you said. I don't know if I should though, being as you clearly know my own stance on things better than I do! 

It's stuff like this that just makes me ask the question again. "If you are not enjoying the game for its current systems, why are you playing it?" 

But if you're asking me if Warframe mechanics are lacking or mediocre compared to to other games however, my answer would be yes and no. 

There are big glaring problems that need to be addressed, systems that are uncooked and felt abandoned, areas that should have been improved and taken further but left for another island. But despite all that, I still enjoy playing the game even with my misgivings. But I assure you, I've no illusion that DE has made perfection, far from it. I'm quite outspoken when it comes to stuff I disagree with and there are a lot.

Quite the assumption. I'm not making a argument, I WAS asking out of general curiosity directly to you and only you. You're the one trying to pervert it into something else from a really innocent question.

Which you still not answered by the way. 

"People like me" Lovely way to start. 

Let me once again clean up your assumption of me: I believed that Open Worlds and by that extent, Plains of Eidolon was the most logical direction for Warframe to take. But I didn't even think about it till it was revealed like "Oh damn, that's actually a good idea." 

I can't be against a change that I wasn't even aware of BEFORE it was announced. I wasn't even that frequent on the forums to discuss any sort of Open World idea at that time to say anything. Thought about it? maybe. But I couldn't even fathom the form a Open World would take on Warframe till the reveal. 

Was I skeptical though? Absolutely. It was such a large undertaking with so many factors that could (and have) gone wrong. But it happened with various success. 

Was it perfect? No. I don't think they got PoE nor Orb Valis right in my opinion. But was it a good step to take? Damn right it was.

 I will give you this: That is a good example and it's a correct observation too. 

From my position, the PoE remaster was both needed... and unneeded? Sure it was pretty to look at, and it brought some well needed adjustments to the economy, but as you point out: little else.

There wasn't really a need to go back for a player that has progressed past PoE, because as you said there was no or little to no rewards to collect outside of a weapon and a few other bits of pieces. 

I get the feeling this was more directed for new players? Because correct if I'm wrong, the Plains are the first open world they'll see? It'd be a good wow factor for them. 

Was it a failing on DEs part? Somewhat. Ideally the remaster should have added new content or sections to the Plains for people who already finished that content. It was the right time for it. But sadly that didn't happen and even some of the more... frustrating issues remained. But if it was to achieve a better experience for new players then I guess it was a success? I'd argue otherwise but I don't know DE's goals for that update nor direction.

Wasted on their part IMHO. But as I mentioned just before, I get the feeling this update wasn't really directed at me. That sucks yes, but it does happen. 

Neither do I.  

But I don't think anyone can really claim that either, and if they do they're incredibly foolish as that stance never lasts. 

If you're asking me: I'd agree with you, but not for the same reasons. Warframe is not the best in any of those categories to me. But I still find myself enjoying what it offers as it appeals to me directly.

Is the sound perfect? No, but I liked the approach the sound team took to ambiance and music. I even own some of the OST because I liked it so much. 

Are the animations perfect? No, the facial animations for example, are quite hideous in my opinion. But there is something quite charming about the idles, the NPC movements, even just something so silly as a Kubrow doing a stretch. 

Do you see what I'm getting at?

And thus we come full circle back to my question: "If you are not enjoying the game for its current systems, why are you playing it?" 

I ask this now because after reading and trying to understand it from your point of view, I end up with the same conclusion as I did after reading your previous post. Are you ever going to be happy with what Warframe does right now?"

And I don't think you will. And yes that is a assumption, but I think a right one.

Nearly everything you pointed out, another game does better or it's never enough for your standards, or you don't like a direction DE took a update. It's like nothing they can do will ever be enough. 

You're not wrong for thinking that exactly. As I've mentioned above I think the same in some regards too but our reasons and outcomes are completely different. If the update doesn't appeal to me, that's fine I just move on and carry on because I like what Warframe offers for me at the time. 

There is nothing wrong with having standards, nor voicing your issues with various aspects of the game for DE to hopefully see, but please try to be realistic about it.

You claim you want "every element to be better" but I don't think you can see the potential damage that will do especially now. You're not asking to improve really, you're asking to gut out a system that is I agree somewhat basic to today's standards for something complex that Warframe possibly can't support. It's not a fact of being AGAINST change. I'm all for it. But I'm trying to be real about it. Trying to see it from DEs perspective and see what they have to use. 

Something like that needs a LOT of refinement, a lot of time to be worked on, something that ideally should have been done at the START of Warframe, not 10 years later. 

If you are asking to change something at a huge level as you're asking, then why are you playing? It's clear Warframe isn't offering you what you want or maybe it has and it's run its course for you and you just want something else now which clearly Warframe can't give you.

I don't think you can convince me otherwise, You say you want change but fail to grasp that your idea of "change" is outside the scope of what the game currently offers and will likely continue to offer. 

The more you point out the facts and yes they are facts, that some games especially nowadays offer something a bit more improved then what Warframe does... will just solidifies my opinion that Warframe has run its course for you and it's time to move on.  

I'm not pushing you out, but it's clear you are not finding what you want here and honestly you're just wasting your time when you could be playing something that clearly hits the right notes for you. 

It's clearly not the case for me on a lot of aspects, and attacking me for a completely innocent question and lumping a group of people together unecessarly, doesn't give your view credit, I'd say it weakens it. 

But before you give me a load of half assumptions, can you answer my original question? 

 

 

 

You didn't ask a question. You never asked a question, despite claiming repeatedly that you did. Let's not talk about credit or credibility. This is what you said:

18 hours ago, Mediloric said:

If I may be so blunt... Reading all this just sounds like you really dislike every element of the game, or the things that make Warframe... Warframe. 

I'm not saying you're wrong in your observations, there are parts that need to be improved but it's really sounding like you want a completely different game. 

 

 

That's what you said after assuming that what I wanted was to remove things from Warframe. I followed up with your assertions by going into detail regarding what I wanted to improve, not remove. I explained how these improvements wouldn't turn Warframe into a completely different game, but would expand on the core gameplay of the game. I used examples of other systems that are far removed from Warframe's core gameplay but that didn't result in the game becoming a completely different game. I mentioned opposition and antagonism towards player suggestions regarding adding open world in the years before PoE was added because the people who opposed adding open world made the same exaggerated arguments as you did: that any expansion to Warframe's core gameplay would turn Warframe into a completely different game, even though the suggestions weren't calling for DE to make it a completely different game or remove any elements from Warframe. You're engaging in the same behavior here by asserting that improving animations (like how the character runs, sprints, walks, holds weapons, swings melee), adding a blocking behavior to melee enemies, improving sound design (like being able to hear returning fire from enemies on tilesets and having sounds travel authentically across distance), improving terrain quality on more maps (like was done with Earth), and improving AI behavior is going to somehow turn Warframe into a completely different game. There's no other way to interpret such an exaggerated view as anything other than an aversion to improvement/expansion of the gameplay mechanics.

To be abundantly clear, I don't want to change Warframe into a completely different game. What I suggested does not change Warframe into a completely different game. What it does is expand on Warframe's core gameplay - gunplay and melee combat - and suggests improvements to related aspects of that core gameplay - namely animations and sounds related to gunplay and melee gameplay. And why do I suggest this? Because I think it will improve the core gameplay experience and make it more engaging, such that players are still having fun even when they've collected everything they want to collect in the game. It's these suggestions that you claim would turn Warframe into a completely different game.

To answer your question regarding why I'm playing a game I don't enjoy: there are elements of Warframe I enjoy. I enjoy the Warframes. I don't really suggest improvements/changes to warframes, because the warframes I choose to play with are sufficiently satisfying to me. I main Excal Umbra. Before that, Excal Prime. I've played with other warframes like Rhino, Oberon, Ash, Hydroid, Nyx, Mag, Nekros, Oberon, Nidus, Chroma, Baruuk, Mesa, Lavos, etc. I enjoy the warframes. I generally enjoy the melee gameplay. I do find a lot of the stances stiff, though, and melee vs melee gameplay to be boring. I like that Warframe offers diversity of gameplay experiences. But I don't think Warframe does any of those gameplay experiences better than other studios, so I want Warframe to improve and expand those systems. That would make Warframe better than those other games in every single area. I am satisfied with what Warframe does. I am not satisfied with how it does it right now. But you've repeatedly made exaggerated claims that this will turn Warframe into a completely different game.

And that exaggeration continues with your accusation that I'm somehow dodging a question you never asked. But I asked a question, a question you did not answer in all your exaggeration.

I don't expect you to actually answer that question, so I'll ask another question: How would improving animations (specifically for how the warframes run/sprint/walk with and without guns and melee, how warframes swing weapons, and how operators run/walk), sound design (particularly how gunfire sounds and how explosions sound, and how they sound across distance), AI behavior (particularly how NPCs react to gunfire and melee attacks), map design (specifically remastering terrain on Mars and Venus like was done with Earth tileset), and even potentially adding an ADS system turn Warframe into a completely different game?

 

By the way, in case it isn't also clear, I was talking about the Earth tileset remaster, not the Plains of Eidolon remaster.

[EdinaMonsoon]

On 2022-09-10 at 5:28 PM, Monolake said:

Please list the weapons that got hit by the ammo changes, and consider posting a separate thread in dedicated feed back section - DE actually listens and they undid the unneeded nerf to recharging weapons already.

all of my weapons, cus they now all have 100% less ammo