Should defense be timer based instead of wave based?

[(PSN)robotwars7]

by this i mean you could borrow the end timer from interception, where after you decode the message, you can kill all the remaining enemies, but once you are down to the last few, a timer appears to move things along. a Defense wave could have a set number of enemies, but if they aren't all killed within a certain amount of time, say 10 minutes, they will retreat and regroup and the next wave will begin. this would also solve the problem of the awful defense map/AI combination that leads to the last enemies getting stuck far away from the objective and having to run around to get them in order to start the next wave. the mode becomes a lot faster and more efficient as a result.

[Tsukinoki]

25 minutes ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

your second issue: waves getting harder as you progress

I don't see that as a problem at all, the whole idea of endurance is to keep ramping up the difficulty. If every wave was exactly the same there'd be no point to staying in; no challenge to it

Longer does not equal harder

A wave that takes 5 minutes due to enemies getting stuck, not spawning properly, or whatever else isn't "harder" than a wave taking 30 seconds because the enemies just rush you head on without stopping.

 

Just because the enemies take longer to kill doesn't mean that they are in any way "harder".
A level 500 heavy gunner is just as "hard" as a level 20 heavy gunner: As in no challenge what-so-ever since you can just turn them off and ignore them....it's just a lot more tedious to kill them.

 

And tedium doesn't make things more difficult....it just makes things boring and not worth continuing.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

1 hour ago, Tsukinoki said:

And tedium doesn't make things more difficult....it just makes things boring and not worth continuing.

Aren't you going to get 'tedium' either way?

the same wave over and over, with no changes from the previous one, as you proposed. Sounds tedious to me....

[SneakyErvin]

No thanks to timed defense.

It would practically gimp Arbitration defense massively, removing all reason to play it in a tactical spot.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

10 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

I would hope not, as all it would promote is cheesing the mission using passive defensive strategies. Right now you could say that Defense has 2 objectives: don't let the objective die, and kill the enemies in each wave. You cannot progress if you don't do both of those things. Changing it to a timer effectively removes the second objective, and the only thing left that would matter is that the pod not die. With how many ways there are to passively defend stationary objectives that never move, that would be trivial and easily automated. Defense requiring kills is the mechanic that keeps the mode from being completely passive, same as Survival requiring kills to maintain life support or Excavation requiring Power Cells. Even Mirror Defense has the objective change positions so you have to at least move every once in a while, a single static Defense objective wouldn't even have that.

That's kind of the problem. You're not just free to play however you want, you're free to not play too. You can do anything as long as the objective doesn't die, and that includes doing just about nothing at all. I got through a lot of Mirror Defense sitting inside Absorb while the timer ticked down. It requires almost no input, just walk between spots every few minutes. Timer-based Defense could be cheesed with even less, and it'd be just as effective as actually playing the game. What should the game reward, activity or passivity?

Timer based rounds, but the enemies drop a macguffin that takes time off the round, so that you can still do it quickly, and it encourages kill speed.  At that point, the timer would basically act as a failsafe so that as long as the objective doesn't die, a round doesn't last 10 minutes because you have a squad full of people that think they're helping by making it take longer.

It being timer based, but encouraging kill speed also means that you could potentially fit more kills into the same general round completion time, depending on spawn rate and team comp, which would make leveling slightly better in some cases.

[(PSN)Unlucky1307]

If it wouldn't invalidate an entire playstyle meant to make current defense more efficient (speed nova) I'd say timer based would be better. Given how poorly warframe handles enemy swarming though, I think the wave based system is better, otherwise you'd eventually have every enemy trapped in a bad spawn location or corridor and just get free loot forever.

[Pizzarugi]

11 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

What should the game reward, activity or passivity?

I don't see why we can't have a time based defense mission encourage activity. Again, look at mirror defense. A big part of keeping your defense objective alive is to collect floating objects to give it a buff. It wouldn't be difficult to come up with new mechanics to make that mandatory instead of optional to discourage AFK farming. If it's one thing DE is consistent in doing, it's adding mechanics that encourage active participation.

At the same time, forcing you to grind through 5 waves of defense is the worst way to encourage active participation, because you're encouraged to take a frame you might not like in order to speed it up or otherwise reward rotations will take longer than literally any other endless mode in the game.

[Mieo_Mio]

12 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

Bring a Speedva and its not so sluggish anymore

Unfortunately most people don't speedva, rather they bring Slowva with Gloom.

Hell I'd bring the range impressive, explosive legerdemain chick but, everyone quits. 

I like the time parameter idea as well.

 

Now then, if people would coordinate Speedva with Mirage's EL you've got me onboard.

[Troll_Logic]

12 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

-yeah, I get that OP likes Mirror Def because the Timer is faster than what they achieve in Normal Defense, but that's not the case for everyone. Some players do Normal Def much faster than Mirror, so converting to a timer would be a downgrade

Not always.  If the countdown was faster than a 5 wave defense mission even with a fast nova, then it would be faster.  It also depends on the map.  Small defense missions can be really fast, but Earth and that incredibly stupid 8 tiered monstrosity that someone should be fired for designing, are slow no matter what because of pathing.  

[PublikDomain]

54 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Timer based rounds, but the enemies drop a macguffin that takes time off the round, so that you can still do it quickly, and it encourages kill speed.  At that point, the timer would basically act as a failsafe so that as long as the objective doesn't die, a round doesn't last 10 minutes because you have a squad full of people that think they're helping by making it take longer.

It being timer based, but encouraging kill speed also means that you could potentially fit more kills into the same general round completion time, depending on spawn rate and team comp, which would make leveling slightly better in some cases.

That would probably be unobtrusive enough for regular people actually playing the game, but you'd have the same problem of "people that think they're helping" making the mode take longer. A 1 minute round being dragged out to 5 minutes instead of 10 is better, but it's still being dragged out. The root problem of "people that think they're helping" making the mode take longer would remain unaddressed. And having a maximum wave duration of any length would still let the mode be cheesed using passive strategies. It doesn't matter how much slower it is if you can win while not being there. One of the top posts on the subreddit right now is showing how players can AFK SP survival missions by clipping outside of the map and shooting at a wall. More of that is... probably not desirable. There are better solutions out there with less cheese potential than a timer.

24 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

I don't see why we can't have a time based defense mission encourage activity. Again, look at mirror defense. A big part of keeping your defense objective alive is to collect floating objects to give it a buff. It wouldn't be difficult to come up with new mechanics to make that mandatory instead of optional to discourage AFK farming. If it's one thing DE is consistent in doing, it's adding mechanics that encourage active participation.

I don't know if Mirror Defense is really the best example of that... You don't need to spend any effort keeping the objective alive if it never takes damage to begin with, and you get more than enough fragments in the tunnel of love to keep overshields and health regen going which just helps reduce the amount of input you need to provide. The buffs are completely optional and can be safely ignored for a comparably large payout.

Adding mechanics that encourage active participation is good... So maybe that's what should be done instead of removing the one mechanic currently requiring participation?

28 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

At the same time, forcing you to grind through 5 waves of defense is the worst way to encourage active participation, because you're encouraged to take a frame you might not like in order to speed it up or otherwise reward rotations will take longer than literally any other endless mode in the game.

Can't the same thing be said about switching to a timer? If the only thing that matters is that the pod not die you'd be encouraged to take a frame you might not like to defend it. You just change which frame type is most encouraged, from mostly offensive frames to only defensive frames.

[Oreades]

I'm pretty sure Survival is already a game mode that exists..... 

[BiancaRoughfin]

14 hours ago, (XBOX)The Neko Otaku said:

Should defense be timer based instead of wave based?

I like mirror defense, initially i was dreading the mode since defense is the most sluggish game type with all sorts of problems of enemy flow and janky spawns(new corpus defense tile cough). But mirror is timer based and for once defense feels fun. The mode is nice and quick and since it's not kill based cc frames get to shine again. 

Honestly thinking defense need to be hauled over to timer based, does everyone else think it be a good change?

I find the idea very interesting, especially given how Defense missions duration fluctuates based on frames used (Those Khoras/Vaubans that love to pin mobs to the walls) and players disposition to "MOVE THAT ASS!" away from the defense target to pick off stragglers at the end of waves.

[Lilybun]

Timer that drops every time you kill an enemy would be an elegant solution to enemies getting stuck in their spawn points. With fast speedva strats and no buggy AI rounds go just as fast as they currently do but with the added benefit of not having to hunt down the last few mobs as the wave would simply time out when 99% of the enemies has been cleared

[PollexMessier]

11 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

 

I feel like the Defense aspect of Mirror Defense is way too trivial....

?maybe I'm overleveled for the content? but in the entire time grinding out Citrine parts, I never once felt like there was a credible threat to the coffin itself. After a while it just devolved into parkour/Titania speed rushing through as many shards as possible. While enemies die incidentally from semi-passive abilities

No you're right, enemies barely do any damage to the objective at all in the normal mission. It's only really worth worrying about in steel path.
the defense part of mirror defense pretty much only exists as a failure condition and it's more of a parkour mission than a defense. Which is why I actually like it quite a bit cus there's not enough parkour content in this game.

I'd be annoyed if you were actually expected to defend and collect shards at the same time. Hell I'd be happy if they removed the defense portion entirely and made it a variant on void flood instead

[Marvelous_A]

With how bad the AI navigation is with the new reworked maps I'd say just stick with timers. For example, finding lost mobs in the new Jupiter defense map is horrendous experience.

[(PSN)jaden0198]

On 3/6/2023 at 1:17 AM, NecroPed said:

Time based? No, I don't think so. I think it should try and stay away from survival and mirror defense in terms of likeness, and I feel having them all time based makes them a little too similar. 

One of the problems I personally have with defense is the tedious nature of hunting out the last few enemies so a new wave can start. It feels like a big change of pace going from slaughtering everything to spending more time moving around and I'd like something to change to keep up the pace of defense missions. 

I think something that can force the next wave to start before another finishes is a better idea if you share the same gripes as I do with defense. Like, maybe if 90% of the enemies are defeated, you can force the next wave to start to avoid having to hunt out the odd enemy floating around the map (maybe at least until the last wave for each reward, requiring all enemies to be killed or a specific amount lower than the amount of spawned enemies just so you aren't being rewarded before actually finishing the objective kill count).

The necessary mechanic/code for this is already in the game.  When you're killing off the remaining enemies after a round of Interception, the next wave timer starts when there are a few enemies remaining.  They could just apply that same mechanic/code to defense waves as well.

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

On 3/6/2023 at 11:09 AM, (PSN)Unlucky1307 said:

If it wouldn't invalidate an entire playstyle meant to make current defense more efficient (speed nova) 

The fact that we need speed nova to make defense not take ages to beat highlights the glaring issues of defense. That it's sluggish mode and takes way too long cause your not using 1 of extremely small number  of frames to speed it up. Defense should about defending a target not forceing the game to be on fast foward. 

Speed nova seems like giant glorified band aid fix that people dont want to admit is a band aid for a sluggish mode 

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

I'd actually approve of this change. I always dread doing Defense missions in Sorties and Archon Hunts because they are such a slog. Really doesn't help matters that the tilesets are utter garbage and enemies always have significant trouble navigating through them which only makes waves drag out longer than they should.

Mirror Defense is actually a breath of fresh air and most importantly FUN. 

[(PSN)Unlucky1307]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)The Neko Otaku said:

The fact that we need speed nova to make defense not take ages to beat highlights the glaring issues of defense. That it's sluggish mode and takes way too long cause your not using 1 of extremely small number  of frames to speed it up. Defense should about defending a target not forceing the game to be on fast foward. 

Speed nova seems like giant glorified band aid fix that people dont want to admit is a band aid for a sluggish mode 

I find normal defense to be comparable to survival if you have a team that's decent and not slowing down or hard crowd controlling enemies. A single competent person with any form of AoE whether that be on their frame, weapon, or even operator, can easily carry a 4 man squad through 5 waves of defense in less than 5 minutes without Nova or other speed increases. The only issue you ever run into is if you're doing ability based AoE and have trash weapons to deal with Nox/Nullifiers/Ancients/Eximus enemies.

Try playing defense on offense instead of standing by the objective, as long as one person is at the defense target to pick off anything you miss, it goes significantly faster. Given DE's anti-afk stance, that's probably why they've left defense as-is, since it encourages a more active playstyle to speed up rewards.

[(PSN)Onder6099]

After You’re done with Crystals nothing encourages You to kill enemies.

[0_The_F00l]

Why not both ?

You have a set timer to defend the objective after which the enemies retreat, but if you kill enough enemies it ends early.

 

[nslay]

On 2023-03-06 at 12:32 AM, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

Nice thing about Defense being kill based, is you can make it go faster by killing faster

Bring a Speedva and its not so sluggish anymore

 

Except for the new and unpopular Corpus Ship Defense which was designed to slow players down no matter what.

[(NSW)BenHiraga]

On 3/5/2023 at 11:57 PM, (XBOX)The Neko Otaku said:

I like mirror defense, initially i was dreading the mode since defense is the most sluggish game type with all sorts of problems of enemy flow and janky spawns(new corpus defense tile cough). But mirror is timer based and for once defense feels fun. The mode is nice and quick and since it's not kill based cc frames get to shine again. 

Honestly thinking defense need to be hauled over to timer based, does everyone else think it be a good change?

Personally, I do not. Defense is my favorite game mode. Sorry.