DEs problem with everything needing to be *new* and always forgetting the old

[Zimzala]

"You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time"

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

This the the problem of the 15 different types of "gamers".

Whatever you hate, someone likes and vice versa. 

And old frames aren't weak, players are.

[DrBorris]

I can't imagine how frustrating it is for DE to dedicate the majority of an update to going back and fixing things only for people to continue making posts and comments like this.

Is everything fixed? God no, of course not. Is the thing you personally think is the most important thing fixed? Probably not. But those are ridiculous expectations. The goal-post shuffling that is happening to maintain the "Oh DE, you're so predictable" narrative is either ignorant or disingenuous.

 

And this isn't to say you can't criticize the things that are still broken, but I believe that you need to acknowledge DE's efforts when giving that criticism. If you don't think their efforts are enough, that's cool too, but you gotta acknowledge the current amount of effort in order to quantity "enough."

Edited November 12, 2023 by DrBorris

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

11 hours ago, dragonborn0998 said:

I get that new content, warframes and updates are needed to keep a live service game alive but is it worth it at the cost of whats already there?

 

Railjack was soooo hyped, it came out, was complete and utter S#&$ , got a update or 2 and is now forgotten forever. Another content island.

PoE was supposed to be a new age of level design for warframe, fast forward to now and this semi-open world level design is long and forgotten.

Warframe quests were a important source of Lore and backstory for new Warframes, now we got the sad excuse that is the Leverian with barely what? 7, maybe 8 actual warframe lore in it?

A new mechanic is introduced every other week and forgotten the next, it seems pointless to spend time in anything as it'll just get left in dust by the next update. whats so wrong with updating old stuff? Why are so many Warframes lackluster and lagging behind the "meta" ones, weapons included. Remember when we was meant to be getting a whole arsenal (hyperbole, obviously) of ice weapons, we got the Sibear and thats it. never to be spoken of again.

Nightwave is barely hanging by a thread in terms of care from DE, they update it whenever they feel like by the looks of it. 

Conclave is...... yeh i dont even need to say anything about that.

What ever happened to Arbiters questline? everyone else got one but DE decided #*!% that syndicate in particular. The new planets dont even get a Junction anymore.

Third Orb mother? DE did 2 and decided yeh i cba.

too many mechanics, too many islands. Is it really that hard for DE to focus on anything for longer than 2 updates? Did pets really need 8+ years just to get some attention?

You're speaking as if you don't know Warframe is a story being told by chapters. There is no rush for any revisits. Why should there be? And who told you it was their time to enter the current scenes?

And which frames are lackluster? There is not a single frame that cannot dominate in this game and, if you think there are, then you are not good with those frames, period. Your performance sucks, not the frames.

And what elemental weapons are we missing? You mentioned one weapon out of hundreds and think you made a good point? What's going on here?

Look, I understand these types of rants will come up every now and then but why is it always the type where there's this magic world of pretending like thousands of hours of playtime is not enough of a benefit to allow the devs to continue their work of building the damn story in real time? I mean, how long did it take Marvel/Disney to get to Endgame, with that big ole multi-billion dollar budget of theirs?  

And why the heck is a vet in here acting like the game SHOULD'VE had these things already? What does it matter what type of known or unknown content we get? Either way, it will be played through and we will demand something else to be released...over and over again. I'm happy that DE realizes that doing what one group wants will only shut them up (for a moment) but get another group started. 

 

7 hours ago, DrBorris said:

I can't imagine how frustrating it is for DE to dedicate the majority of an update to going back and fixing things only for people to continue making posts and comments like this.

Is everything fixed? God no, of course not. Is the thing you personally think is the most important thing fixed? Probably not. But those are ridiculous expectations. The goal-post shuffling that is happening to maintain the "Oh DE, you're so predictable" narrative is getting annoying and I don't have any skin in this game.

 

And this isn't to say you can't criticize the things that are still broken, but I believe that you need to acknowledge DE's efforts when giving that criticism. If you don't think their efforts are enough, that's cool too, but you gotta acknowledge the current amount of effort in order to quantity "enough."

I think OP is having an obsession rant. At that point, DE will never be able to do enough. The devs don't need to see that, especially considering we all know how hard they work. As you mentioned, criticism is fine, but rants like OPs are not the way to go.

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

58 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

This the the problem of the 15 different types of "gamers".

Whatever you hate, someone likes and vice versa. 

And old frames aren't weak, players are.

Reported for telling the truth

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

This has been an issue for a long time and DE will continue to do things the same way. It sucks but it's clear each update won't be built for longevity.

[kamisama85]

And as soon as they start making ONLY one thing like OP wants, OP and others will eventually be back with the follow up post: "Why does DE keep making the same boring stuff?".

It has already happened.

 

[DebrisFlow]

We just got a gigantic overhaul of pets, shieldgating, new player experience, accessibility & HUD...all in a single update. Warframes are now also being regularly revised, in part or in their full kit, (zephyt, mag, hydroid and grendel are some recent examples that came to my unattentive mind). Don't you think that actually a lot of work is being put into bringing the old up to date?

[CosoMalvadoNG]

The circle never ends.
Average group of players: DE buff things please.
A month later.
Average group of players: DE nerf thing please.
One year later.
Average group of players: DE buff thing please.

Repeat this equation infinitely.

When you or a group cry about something and DE makes changes because of those cries, another group similar to yours will cry to change what you asked for and it was changed. In just these last 2 years there has been more overhaul, fixes and positive changes to the game than in the previous 5 years. I just don't understand people.

Edited November 12, 2023 by CosoMalvadoNG
Add text

[Corvid]

5 hours ago, (PSN)IndianChiefJeff said:

Dark Sector never struck me as much of an indie title given how much it takes from other late 2000s shooters.

That's because it quite literally wasn't one. Before Warframe, DE wasn't an independent studio, they worked for various publishers (Deep Silver in Dark Sector's case) and were thus subjected to said publishers' mandates, hence why that game drew so heavily from trends of the time.

In fact, the original concept for Dark Sector was actually much closer to what Warframe ended up being, as seen by its old trailer.

Spoiler

 

 

Edited November 12, 2023 by Corvid

[quxier]

  

6 hours ago, dragonborn0998 said:

Railjack was soooo hyped, it came out, was complete and utter S#&$ , got a update or 2 and is now forgotten forever. Another content island.

And what do you expect, another year of doing RJ related stuff while doing almost nothing to other parts? No, thank you. I don't like RJ so that year or 2 were waste for me. What we got beside RJ? Few bad frames or stuff? Yeah...

2 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

 

And old frames aren't weak, players are.

 

Frames can be strong yet be clunky in some aspects. What was "ok" in old era is not so "ok" in this era.

1 hour ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

1 hour ago, DrBorris said:

I can't imagine how frustrating it is for DE to dedicate the majority of an update to going back and fixing things only for people to continue making posts and comments like this.

Is everything fixed? God no, of course not. Is the thing you personally think is the most important thing fixed? Probably not. But those are ridiculous expectations. The goal-post shuffling that is happening to maintain the "Oh DE, you're so predictable" narrative is getting annoying and I don't have any skin in this game.

 

And this isn't to say you can't criticize the things that are still broken, but I believe that you need to acknowledge DE's efforts when giving that criticism. If you don't think their efforts are enough, that's cool too, but you gotta acknowledge the current amount of effort in order to quantity "enough."

Expand  

I think OP is having an obsession rant. At that point, DE will never be able to do enough. The devs don't need to see that, especially considering we all know how hard they work. As you mentioned, criticism is fine, but rants like OPs are not the way to go.

First, do we how hard they work? Like... have you been in their workplace and see them spending more than 8 hours per day? Working during weekends? I'm not saying that they are lazy but I have 0 knowledge about their work.

Secondly, for customer it matters less how hard people work. What matters is a final product. Like you bought hotdog. It taste like... it tastes bad. The person that made it had rough week (e.g. family matters). Are you going to talk to them? Nah. You will just voice your opinion about that bad food. Same here. Like they say: "work smarter not work harder". It honestly doesn't matter to me if they spend 1 hour or 100 hours. I can enjoy some random Gamejam games or short games as hobby than some frames that DE has been working for days (not all the time). And what's even worse if they forcing "one way to play X" kind of style then they could work a lot (and hard) but they product won't be great. Look at Styanax. One of the first versions you could use abilities during 4th and recasting 4th in the air. It made frame more complex. Their final product had greater value. Then they just banned those 2 things. Their work has been wasted on that part of Styanax' kit. So not only they haven't delivered "the greatest product", they even spend "working hours" on something that doesn't have to be changed. So "working hard" isn't that important.

ps. I'm not saying they have to work like slaves, just smarter.

[Joezone619]

7 hours ago, dragonborn0998 said:

Is it really that hard for DE to focus on anything for longer than 2 updates?

Well i'm just glad somebody finally said it. IMO DE has gotten too used to releasing half an update, then the other half later, instead of a finished product from the start.

[Nekomian]

6 hours ago, Genitive said:

They currently have around 300 employees

Just because I haven't seen anyone state it as well - 300 employees does not mean "300 people all working on this game"; a LOT are probably customer support and internal positions like HR or payroll. A good majority are artists as well, meaning they'll design and do rigging and all that but actual in-game implementations and changes need to be done by coding teams, which are often very small even in game dev. It does depend on the needs of the game, but with something as mature as Warframe (where the engine is basically all fleshed out / built-up) it's probably closer to like 1:3 or 1:4 programmers per artist. There's a reason we see basically one or two people tasked with an initiative, like Hydroid rework or Companion rework - I'm sure it's internally reviewed, but it's probably just one or two people scoping out the project and implementing changes, for a huge game with 10+ years of coding. The rest are likely working on new areas or mechanics, writing new lua scripts, or any other number of things (i.e. console builds, launcher team, etc.)

This isn't to say that I don't agree with some parts of the OPs post about how things can tend to feel forgotten, but also that people often see big number and go "look, they've got so many people they should be able to do X!" when it's really not that simple or straightforward.

[Raarsi]

Shortest answer: new stuff yields more profit.  That's not a DE problem, that's a "what do the players want" problem that is persistent for EVERY online game out there.

[TARINunit9]

8 hours ago, dragonborn0998 said:

Railjack was soooo hyped, it came out, was complete and utter S#&$ , got a update or 2 and is now forgotten forever. Another content island.

I've seen rumors that they consider it an outright failure. If true, it's a special case where it's not forgotten, but deliberately pushed away

(If not true, then you're basically correct)

8 hours ago, dragonborn0998 said:

Nightwave is barely hanging by a thread in terms of care from DE, they update it whenever they feel like by the looks of it. 

There's two things going on here. Glassmaker was panned by the fanbase and probably burned the devs out on it entirely. Even still, Nightwave is serving its true purpose: let new players collect Vauban, Nitain, and potatoes without relying on random alerts that vanish after 45 minutes

8 hours ago, dragonborn0998 said:

PoE was supposed to be a new age of level design for warframe, fast forward to now and this semi-open world level design is long and forgotten.

I don't think this is entirely fair. After Plains and Vallis came out DE went back and redesigned the Corpus Ship and Jupiter City tilesets -- paying attention to old content like you want them to. The only truly new levels they've added since were the Sentient Murex and... Duviri! Another semi-open world! So I think they're doing just fine

[sly_squash]

I just want them to fix the trading system.  Every update that's the only patch note I'm looking for.  :(

[CephalonOlphus]

18 minutes ago, sly_squash said:

I just want them to fix the trading system.  Every update that's the only patch note I'm looking for.  :(

fix it how? what's broken with it?

[(NSW)Greybones]

I think that DE focusing more on what exists would require players to actually be content with playing around with what’s here. The game from the ground up knows that its players are doing things on repeat and is designed that different experiences comes from player choice combined with what’s already here

Usually though players get to a certain point, settle into certain efficient habits, and then need the game to alter something to break them out of their habits (which would more often than not upset players until they find new habits to settle into, like flighty birds), or introduce something shiney and new. New has more of an appeal than “Same but different” even if it gets blown through quickly and, due to established habits, becomes more background noise and less new component to add into the gameplay mix. Personally I think we’ve got enough new already, but it is kind of hard to deny that I like what they add

Edited November 12, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[(PSN)robotwars7]

9 hours ago, dragonborn0998 said:

I get that new content, warframes and updates are needed to keep a live service game alive but is it worth it at the cost of whats already there?

this is something many of us wrestle with all the time, and I usually think the answer is "not really, unless the new stuff is a genuine improvement upon or replacement for new content".

9 hours ago, dragonborn0998 said:

Railjack was soooo hyped, it came out, was complete and utter S#&$ , got a update or 2 and is now forgotten forever. Another content island.

I was hoping that sometime after New War, they'd at least mention railjack, to let us know they haven't forgotten about it.. that hasn't happened sadly.

9 hours ago, dragonborn0998 said:

PoE was supposed to be a new age of level design for warframe, fast forward to now and this semi-open world level design is long and forgotten.

well, it did lay the foundations for Fortuna Deimos and Duviri. it was a huge gamble, and for the most part it paid off, it's just a shame that it hasn't had as many QoL improvements as the other maps got: a token system like what the Entrati have would have gone a LONG way.

9 hours ago, dragonborn0998 said:

Warframe quests were a important source of Lore and backstory for new Warframes, now we got the sad excuse that is the Leverian with barely what? 7, maybe 8 actual warframe lore in it?

I like the Leverian, but that too is forgotten, even though I didn't think every new frame would get a Leverian, I at least wanted some of the frames with ZERO lore like Baruuk and Hildryn to get the Leverian treatment, but no dice I guess.

9 hours ago, dragonborn0998 said:

A new mechanic is introduced every other week and forgotten the next, it seems pointless to spend time in anything as it'll just get left in dust by the next update. whats so wrong with updating old stuff? Why are so many Warframes lackluster and lagging behind the "meta" ones, weapons included. Remember when we was meant to be getting a whole arsenal (hyperbole, obviously) of ice weapons, we got the Sibear and thats it. never to be spoken of again.

I don't remember them saying we'd get a whole arsenal of ice weapons, but if that was going to be the case, I bet they too would have required a ridiculous amoutn of cryotic, which was probably why that idea might be axed as literally nobody likes having to craft the Sibear. were it not for the Hema and it's infamous research requirements, Sibear would probably be the worst to build of all weapons.

9 hours ago, dragonborn0998 said:

Nightwave is barely hanging by a thread in terms of care from DE, they update it whenever they feel like by the looks of it. 

season 5 is just around the corner, though for people like me who never missed a season, most of the rewards are repeats, and the credits can only be spent on potatoes and Kuva, so it sort of loses it's luster for me. I actually liked the seasonal format, but Glassmaker killed that and DE found it too resource intensive apparently.

9 hours ago, dragonborn0998 said:

Conclave is...... yeh i dont even need to say anything about that.

say anything about what? :)

9 hours ago, dragonborn0998 said:

What ever happened to Arbiters questline? everyone else got one but DE decided #*!% that syndicate in particular. The new planets dont even get a Junction anymore.

Arbiters seem to exist solely as a bunch of Tenno fanboys who offer us a place to train in the form of Arbitrations, at this point I don't think they have any other motives and at this point I don't really care either. they still have the best looking armor set though so *shrugs*

9 hours ago, dragonborn0998 said:

Third Orb mother? DE did 2 and decided yeh i cba.

at this point the third orb mother is situated VERY deep into the democratic peoples republic of Copeistan, in lake Cope, which is made of pure liquid Copium. 

9 hours ago, dragonborn0998 said:

too many mechanics, too many islands. Is it really that hard for DE to focus on anything for longer than 2 updates? Did pets really need 8+ years just to get some attention?

I agree. but after a while, you start to just accept that this is the way things are, and no amount of posting or complaining will ever change it. 

[Hexerin]

10 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

Yes

 

they're a small indie dev studio

and don't have the staff/hours to do both New Content and Maintenance at the same time.

given that the New Content brings in more money, that takes priority.

 

10 hours ago, Genitive said:

I think it is valid. They currently have around 300 employees. By comparison, companies like Bungie have around a thousand, and Destiny 2 is still underperforming. 

You don't get to claim "indie" anymore when you're worth millions and have the backing of trillions.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

7 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

You don't get to claim "indie" anymore when you're worth millions and have the backing of trillions.

OK, well if the reason isn't a lack of Capability; then what else could it be?

is it because they are lazy or greedy or just don't care?

[trst]

It's not entirely a DE problem but also a community problem. DE structured the game to lack the hooks that let content remain relevant for more than a few weeks to a month and the community has grown accustom to that. Yet when DE tries to introduce things which are required for that they complain, just look at the weekly content additions we've seen and how players complain. Or how when anything even slightly grindy or difficult releases and players demand for things to be made easier to get/do.

Instead the game is built to survive specifically with new content and it's exactly that which the community has grown accustom to. If DE focused on existing content the community would rapidly grow bored of seeing nothing actually new and dwindle away while a minority enjoys (yet will still complain about) the same old stuff seeing additions.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

5 hours ago, quxier said:

  

And what do you expect, another year of doing RJ related stuff while doing almost nothing to other parts? No, thank you. I don't like RJ so that year or 2 were waste for me. What we got beside RJ? Few bad frames or stuff? Yeah...

Frames can be strong yet be clunky in some aspects. What was "ok" in old era is not so "ok" in this era.

First, do we how hard they work? Like... have you been in their workplace and see them spending more than 8 hours per day? Working during weekends? I'm not saying that they are lazy but I have 0 knowledge about their work.

Secondly, for customer it matters less how hard people work. What matters is a final product. Like you bought hotdog. It taste like... it tastes bad. The person that made it had rough week (e.g. family matters). Are you going to talk to them? Nah. You will just voice your opinion about that bad food. Same here. Like they say: "work smarter not work harder". It honestly doesn't matter to me if they spend 1 hour or 100 hours. I can enjoy some random Gamejam games or short games as hobby than some frames that DE has been working for days (not all the time). And what's even worse if they forcing "one way to play X" kind of style then they could work a lot (and hard) but they product won't be great. Look at Styanax. One of the first versions you could use abilities during 4th and recasting 4th in the air. It made frame more complex. Their final product had greater value. Then they just banned those 2 things. Their work has been wasted on that part of Styanax' kit. So not only they haven't delivered "the greatest product", they even spend "working hours" on something that doesn't have to be changed. So "working hard" isn't that important.

ps. I'm not saying they have to work like slaves, just smarter.

The Styanax issue you mentioned is a great example of why DE was smart to trim it down. Player generated exploits or overuse is a great way to observe and adjust an ability. DE has always used player metrics to adjust the game. That has been a part of this game since the beginning and won't ever change. We help make the game better...both by suggesting or exploiting.

Now, do you want to know how I know DE works hard? It is very simple:

They managed to maintain over 10 years of a single game, release it successfully on virtually every platform, maintain a favorable update schedule, has consistently surprised their players with deeper gameplay, they somehow managed to push massive content despite a worldwide catastrophic pandemic (which included staff and family loss), hosts an annual convention (which is extraordinarily hard to do), and still keep both me and you active in its forums to discuss whether an OP is right about DE creating TOO MANY new things as other players point out DE just went back to revisit old things.

There is no amount of laziness our casual work that can effectively achieve what I listed. That is all what hard working leaders do. Trying to question that is honestly doing a disservice to yourself. 

[Hexerin]

2 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

OK, well if the reason isn't a lack of Capability; then what else could it be?

is it because they are lazy or greedy or just don't care?

Pride.

[quxier]

3 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

8 hours ago, quxier said:

And what do you expect, another year of doing RJ related stuff while doing almost nothing to other parts? No, thank you. I don't like RJ so that year or 2 were waste for me. What we got beside RJ? Few bad frames or stuff? Yeah...

Frames can be strong yet be clunky in some aspects. What was "ok" in old era is not so "ok" in this era.

First, do we how hard they work? Like... have you been in their workplace and see them spending more than 8 hours per day? Working during weekends? I'm not saying that they are lazy but I have 0 knowledge about their work.

Secondly, for customer it matters less how hard people work. What matters is a final product. Like you bought hotdog. It taste like... it tastes bad. The person that made it had rough week (e.g. family matters). Are you going to talk to them? Nah. You will just voice your opinion about that bad food. Same here. Like they say: "work smarter not work harder". It honestly doesn't matter to me if they spend 1 hour or 100 hours. I can enjoy some random Gamejam games or short games as hobby than some frames that DE has been working for days (not all the time). And what's even worse if they forcing "one way to play X" kind of style then they could work a lot (and hard) but they product won't be great. Look at Styanax. One of the first versions you could use abilities during 4th and recasting 4th in the air. It made frame more complex. Their final product had greater value. Then they just banned those 2 things. Their work has been wasted on that part of Styanax' kit. So not only they haven't delivered "the greatest product", they even spend "working hours" on something that doesn't have to be changed. So "working hard" isn't that important.

ps. I'm not saying they have to work like slaves, just smarter.

Expand  

The Styanax issue you mentioned is a great example of why DE was smart to trim it down. Player generated exploits or overuse is a great way to observe and adjust an ability. DE has always used player metrics to adjust the game. That has been a part of this game since the beginning and won't ever change. We help make the game better...both by suggesting or exploiting.

Overuse? That's laughable excuse that you could come up. DE at least made excuse that make sense, even we don't have to agree with that ("We want it to use that way").

Using Final stand weren't overused or exploited too much. If you can have much easier access to slash & damage in general then "banning" Final stand is just silly. But let say Final stand were "too strong in that state". Guess what? There are many abilities, even subsumable, that you can use. Aquablades, Grasp of Lohk to name few. There weren't problem with Grasp of Lohk... they even made his whole kit about "stoping timers". Similar issue of overnerf were Exodia contagion. Like... they could just make it "one time per 2 jumps" (Aerial ace would make more shots). Even 1 time before landing. No, there has to be bullet or double jump which doesn't work too well in certain tilesets.

3 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

They managed to maintain over 10 years of a single game

Let me turn on 20 years old game... oh, it works out of the box.

3 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

maintain a favorable update schedule

What do you mean? We have times were we get very small amount of content, content is not great etc.

3 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

has consistently surprised their players with deeper gameplay

What? What surprise is about Abyssal zone, Citrine's defense, RJ? I mean, there are stuff that are great and that are ok to meh.

3 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

they somehow managed to push massive content despite a worldwide catastrophic pandemic (which included staff and family loss)

I disagree. At that time we get few bad frames (1 or more got some changes later) and boring RJ. If you don't like RJ you got almost nothing new to do for 1-2 years.

3 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

hosts an annual convention (which is extraordinarily hard to do)

What's so hard about it?

3 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

and still keep both me and you active in its forums to discuss whether an OP is right about DE creating TOO MANY new things as other players point out DE just went back to revisit old things.

That's because something is missing not that DE is doing good job.

3 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

There is no amount of laziness our casual work that can effectively achieve what I listed. That is all what hard working leaders do. Trying to question that is honestly doing a disservice to yourself. 

They have 300+ employees. If it were small studio doing this then I would be in awe. That's not the case here. And again 2 things: "work smarter not harder" and "not saying they are lazy".