"This is high level, we are starting at 35" ....ehm, what? :D

[H0NDO]

Personally I believe every Planet on the star chart should have at least one sortie level difficulty mode, or else what's the point when you blow through a tileset and have no reason to go back? The Dark sectors were a good step in the right direction.

[Gunslinger]

And yet we still have a big number of threads about how hard is to do 1h kuva survival (with a full squad!) Or how hard is the Wolf to kill (people calling it unfair?! o.O) Also I remember the uproar when Fortuna first launched about how hard are the enemies. So, yeah. Level 35 seems a bit high for the vast majority of the community.

[SneakyErvin]

30 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Reminds me of the previous dev stream (I think) when she said the new eidolon ephemera would be awarded for doing some difficult task, and she gave two examples of what might be, capping a hydrolyst solo and capping a hundred hydrolysts. That made alarm bells ring in my head, because to me that suggests she doesn't know the difference between "difficult" and "tedious". IMO not really knowing the difference between those is one of the greatest problems DE has as a dev studio. So I'm not surprised she doesn't know what "high level" is either.

The problem is that most of the players here that want challenging content also go for the tedious version, instead of wanting a proper rework to the enemies of the game. I mean if the playerbase doesnt really know what they want when it comes to challenge, how on earth will the devs figure it out when they have far less playtime under their belt in the higher levels of the game.

I'm not surprised though that they class it as high level, because it is high level according to star chart levels, which it should still be. Hopefully the mode scales quickly, aswell as getting added to arbis. I also hope that we will see the difficulty option Steve(?) talked about during one of the recent dev streams, so we can actually set our missions to the starting level/level cap we want.

I really see no reason for anything higher than 50 on the star map, because the rewards will likely not match anything that starts higher. And for me an arpg is always about risk vs reward, so if they made this new mode a level 100 mission without increasing loot I'd feel bummed out, much like I do with arbitrations mostly, because the rewards dont match the level of the mode or where it is imagined to be in the progression of things.

They really need to give us an elite star chart with modified drop tables to go with it, a chart where everything starts at level 100. This along with a rework of mobs and their abilities so we actually get mechanical fights that are deadly while trash mobs are just an annoyance factor/distraction. It works well in Vallis, it gets fun higher up in alert levels because if you fail to catch that Jackal due to trash keeping you busy, he will mow you down in seconds. Same with a sneaky hyena that comes up and pulls off his AoE as you fight trash. Those are the things we need everywhere, but with a large nerf to regular trash attacks. My suggestion is capping "basic attack" scaling at level 50, then start working on special abilities for all mobs, abilities that are dangerous if you dont avoid them or have options to mitigate them. Some mobs like snipers will only use their sniper rifle, which will be a special ability, while others like regular troopers may have cooldown based abilities like aimed shots, grenades or other things.

In addition to the mob changes they should cut down on things like disarm abilities, or simply remove them completely. There are just too many of these types of skills that simply ruin and trivialize the game completely.

edit: I mean how freakin cool wouldnt it be if you miss one of the self exploding infested wandering into your ranks and going Yallalalalalala allahu-snackbar! And kaboom the group dies.

Edited May 4, 2019 by SneakyErvin

[Warhydra]

The advantage of starting at low level and then scaling up is so both casuals and hardcore players can play it. 

[LSG501]

1 hour ago, DreisterDino said:

Anyone else feels the same? I know it has been just a short sequence and a sentence, but it was enough to kill the bit of hope i had 😑

 

Considering how mind numbingly tedious it looks I really doubt I'll be doing it very often so level won't make much difference overall.  I'll get the 'good stuff' from there (can't decide if wisp will be there, with the flydelon or split between them) and then it will likely be left to gather dust.

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

Why can't we get a "per player" difficulty setting where we can set up our desired level and the whole starchart gets scaled to said level , but only for the user that set it up (so you can still play with noobs).

This would also come with an innate xp, ressource and drop rate multiplier, perhas an increase in drop percentage for rare items too and it would use the mastery rank levels to determine the max level you can choose (if you're MR27 and you're a masochist, set your starting level to 160 and enjoy the challenge).

This would be awesome for vets, as we would be able to actually spend time on the 98% of the starchart we never go back to because it's too low level and useless. This would also fix alot of the complaining about warframe having no challenge asides from 1 hour plus endless mission, while still giving everyone an "opt out" if they don't want to be challenged. If your frame and build can handle 100, but not 160, do 100...

It's just ridiculous what we have now, a system where you keep forcing people capable to handle lvl 100+ missions into doing lvl 5 missions.

 

Edited May 4, 2019 by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

As far as we know, the majority of the playerbase is only at Neptune. So saying it high level isn't off by DE internat statistics. 

TC does bringa  good idea to tbe table. Making it so players can force enemy level to 100 from the start should be an option. At the same time, there's just too much trolling involved along with toxic players to actively pursue an endeavor. Having no special rewards just mean lots of people will turn away from it or switch it off. Allowing those that want to play it that way to group up with liked minded individuals.

[Aldain]

I honestly don't get why people are so hung up on what "High Level" really is when overall nothing really changes in terms of actual gameplay other than bigger numbers at higher levels.

The only difference from level 1 and level 100 enemies tend to wind up being damage output and needed input for damage, their behaviors don't really change from those levels.

Sure, level 1000 enemies are "harder" in that they will one-shot you, the objective and anything in-between and take obtuse amounts of damage, but the enemies themselves are still walking turrets at best.

The reason Warframe isn't "challenging" isn't because of the numbers, its because most enemies have no value other THAN their numbers to fall back on. All that changes as the level goes up is the type of borderline exploits that are needed to not instantly die or lose a defense objective, most of them involving Snow Globes and various Limbo use.

[SneakyErvin]

I'm still amazed they havent come up with a "Killing Floor" game mode for WF, without purchasing the weapons obviously. Some serious horde mode with real bosses and bad ass elites to mow through.

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'm still amazed they havent come up with a "Killing Floor" game mode for WF, without purchasing the weapons obviously. Some serious horde mode with real bosses and bad ass elites to mow through.

The major difference in Killing Floor and Warframe is the static baseline that KF works with. Every single class has the same basic functions and health/armor with perks differing between them to better favor different playstyles.

Warframe has so much modular nature that implementing something like that would be nigh-impossible without players finding small number bases exploits that trivialize the content. I could see this being a thing if there was a "No Mods, base stats and abilities only" mode with different enemy scaling to accommodate for that, but that would also be taking the Warframe out of Warframe.

The second point of contention comes down to "Can DE make a boss that isn't just a sponge with damage gates and ability immunity?" because history kinda doesn't favor DE's boss design skills. I mean the Wolf ain't no Patriarch despite both being sponges because unlike the Wolf, the Patriarch is actually dangerous and has strategy to deal with him (Pipebomb hat is my favorite method personally).

Overall a mode like that isn't completely out of the realm of possibility, but I question Warframe and DE's capacity to implement it in a meaningful way.

[Lost_Cartographer]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Tucker D Dawg said:

Well it looks like it is meant to be a standard star chart mission  so high level the way sedna is I guess.

DE's problem is they seem to be unwilling to put things behind content that is difficult for the casual player - and so long as thats the case, there will be no high level content.

 

Well, they do look at the numbers, and I doubt sortie is run by a large portion of the player base.

Generally, when DE creates content that is clearly meant for the min-maxers, they make it to screw with with the mindset, while everything else is put in that "you can pick most weapons and any frame and do okay here" zone, which makes up probably the bulk of the their player base.  

Edited May 4, 2019 by Lost_Cartographer

[Kingsmount]

6 minutes ago, Aldain said:

The major difference in Killing Floor and Warframe is the static baseline that KF works with. Every single class has the same basic functions and health/armor with perks differing between them to better favor different playstyles.

Warframe has so much modular nature that implementing something like that would be nigh-impossible without players finding small number bases exploits that trivialize the content. I could see this being a thing if there was a "No Mods, base stats and abilities only" mode with different enemy scaling to accommodate for that, but that would also be taking the Warframe out of Warframe.

The second point of contention comes down to "Can DE make a boss that isn't just a sponge with damage gates and ability immunity?" because history kinda doesn't favor DE's boss design skills. I mean the Wolf ain't no Patriarch despite both being sponges because unlike the Wolf, the Patriarch is actually dangerous and has strategy to deal with him (Pipebomb hat is my favorite method personally).

Overall a mode like that isn't completely out of the realm of possibility, but I question Warframe and DE's capacity to implement it in a meaningful way.

 

Unless it was an operator game mode where you lose access to your weapons, frame, even mods.   Imagine a Grustrag Three capture type of deal, but say the Sentients captured you and did something to your operator.   Tenshin, or your highest Syndicate,  intercepted the ship transporting you and you wreck on an infested asteroid/planet.    You can find weapons, mods, even frames (Or you still have your frame, but it's blank).  Or better yet, no frames at all but you can find "Golems" you can use Transference on to possess like that one moment we saw in the questline that was never utilized again.

 

Or no capture involved,  but an infested Orokin prison with high security measures that you cannot enter with your equipment,  you enter using Transference to bypass the gates leaving you in operator mode alone,  where you can operate disabled security golems and find weapons (with or without mods being involved at all).

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, Kingsmount said:

Unless it was an operator game mode where you lose access to your weapons, frame, even mods.

There's already that subset who hate the mere existence of operators in the community, something like this would have them frothing with rage.

Personally I'd be down for it, assuming they gave some QoL buffs to how operators currently handle.

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

4 minutes ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

Well, they do look at the numbers, and I doubt sortie is run by a large portion of the player base.

Generally, when DE creates content that is clearly meant for the min-maxers, they make it to screw with with the mindset, while everything else is put in that "you can pick most weapons and any frame and do okay here" zone, which makes up probably the bulk of the their player base.

Perhaps - although the times I run Sortie on public its almost always mid level players (10-20 level).  And the sorties may well be challenging for those players - and it should be - the rewards are probably valuable to them - so its a decent mix of risk/effort/reward for those players.

However, the people that are asking for high level content probably don't consider the sorties to be high level - none of the people I regularly play with do - its a time filler if we have nothing better to do at best - and the rewards aren't rewarding - but thats ok since we don't consider it challenging.

HOWEVER - I do think that DE needs to make more difficult content - give people a reason to get good gear, mod well, learn the frames etc.  And in that case its perfectly fine if the majority of the players can't do it - so long as it is content that the majority of the players feel like they could work toward.  Look at Destiny Raids for example - the majority of players can't do them (even if they could dedicate the hours needed - and i'm NOT saying Warframe needs content that requires 4 hour runs in one sitting).  But if players could see some content and think to themselves "I can't do that - right now - but I know if I get better I can" - and the rewards are good enough to motivate them to do so it would be good for the game.

As it is now, people just run the same low level stuff with the sole purpose being chasing MR - which means nothing.

 

[Ryim_Drykeon]

At least this time they are starting low, so they can make it more difficult.

Instead of teasing us with a challenge and nerfing it to the ground *coughPOEcoughValisCough*

 

Edit: Oh, and people don't avoid Sorties due to the tough challenge. They avoid them because the rewards suck.

Edited May 4, 2019 by Ryim_Drykeon

[o0Despair0o]

May I remind you that the game is focused around level 30-40 ?

Everything above 30 is considered to be high level.

 

Remember Ember pre-rework? She couldn't handle jack s*** above 30. Because past level 30 the scaling goes out the window. One second you're killing a Bombard with one shot, the next second you're getting wrecked by Lancers with a bazillion health.

[--END--Rikutatis]

2 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

snip

Totally agree with you. It was a mix of laughable and sad at the same time. 

I have a theory, I would like to think Rebb knows how to mod a weapon to kill lvl 35 enemies (I cringe everytime I remember that moment), but she purposefully modded her weapon in a terrible way with as little damage as possible to avoid any kind of embarassment of her effortlessly one shotting everything while trying to showcase the spanking new content DE is releasing. But then things went from bad to worse when she got the "enemies have dmg resistance" debuff from the tower and now she could barely even scratch those lvl 35 enemies. 

Honestly, the whole thing was kinda pathetic, once you realize a fully min-maxed weapon build can kill enemies up to lvl 200-400. A sniper or melee can kill enemies well above level 1000. Unbuffed

Let's be brutally honest here, Warframe is a baby game. That devstream and the answers here in your thread all point to this. It's Hello Kitty Online with edgey looking space ninjia themes instead. Based on what I hear from the older players who've been here since the beginning, it wasn't always like this. But this is what it is now. It's a baby looter shooter complete with all the child safety locks you can think of, and now it even has freaking teddy bears as one of the most loved cosmetics in the game. You either stick with the game for other reasons (for me it's the story), or go elsewhere to look for endgame content. 

Edited May 4, 2019 by --END--Rikutatis

[mikakor]

1 hour ago, Void-Gunslinger said:

And yet we still have a big number of threads about how hard is to do 1h kuva survival (with a full squad!)

people don't say it's hard. please do not confuse people.

They say it's BORING. there is no challenge. Kuva survival one hour? it's as pie. but doesn't make it less boring and frustrating, and also mind numbing. sometimes you also lose because of RNG. past 50 minute, enemies suddenly stop coming and giving personal life support.  i don't call this difficulty, i call that #*!%ing BS. it's not hard, it's mind crushing, not the same thing. it was a badly designed task, period.

[(XBOX)Architect Prime]

1 hour ago, o0Despair0o said:

May I remind you that the game is focused around level 30-40 ?

Everything above 30 is considered to be high level.

 

Remember Ember pre-rework? She couldn't handle jack s*** above 30. Because past level 30 the scaling goes out the window. One second you're killing a Bombard with one shot, the next second you're getting wrecked by Lancers with a bazillion health.

Ember seems to be fine for a few hours of infested survival in my experience. 

[(NSW)Katsuro]

If they implement something similar to this > 

 

[KIREEK]

You have lvl 100 missions everyday, sortie missions can be replayed

Lvl 35 is actually pretty high, the level is usually reserved for areas like pluto, sedna or the kuva fortess and it's being placed on jupiter, a planet where most players start to get neural sensors, an essential resource to build the 1st warframes they want to build (so they get more diversity when playing the game), so slapping a lvl 35 gamemode might be actually pretty hard for them.

They will be carried for sure and if there is one thing that does not improve player quality in any way is carrying said player.

Edited May 4, 2019 by KIREEK

[Fishyflakes]

How can you like high level content and then complain about Corrosive Projection being a bandage mod 👀

[Seph-Aldaire]

4 hours ago, Tangent-Valley said:

Note: Something you can only do in this game by using Ultra-Kraft-Cheese tactics. (And when DE allows you to face "Ultra-High-Level" Enemies, BUT take away your ability to Cheese them, Everyone complains about it)

It's not cheese if it's an actual game mechanic, we complain when they take away actual mechanics they added in the first place.

[(XBOX)Architect Prime]

1 minute ago, Seosa said:

It's not cheese if it's an actual game mechanic, we complain when they take away actual mechanics they added in the first place.

I believe in bugging enemies, not needing warframe. My reason being that warframe are supposed to be powerful... So there should be a few units that wreck. Or maybe better ai.

[Xzorn]

Some of these opinions made me sad.

I go into Elemental Resistance Sorties with pure Elemental weapons. M3 Survival with no mods on. Just purposely do everything wrong because it doesn't matter and I enjoy mocking the game's "Difficulty" at this point. No one actually wants to sit in a mission for 2+ damn hours to get adversarial enemies anymore.

That's the entire point of why long term players are simply done. DE has made it clear they'd rather players do chores than challenges. Just spam the same mission over and over without any risk till you get that 1% drop chance item then sit in your Orbiter waiting for the next chore to come out.