How would you react to the end of power creep?

[TARINunit9]

I don't really have much of a poetic lead-in to this topic and the question therein. It started with me looking at the recent Prime Access weapons and thinking to myself "Tipedo and Akjagera Primes? Zhuge and Ninkoni Primes? Funny, those are a lot weaker than the twin saints of Power Creep that are Rubico and Galatine Primes (and the sidegrade Gram Prime)". I then started reading articles on power creep and how, historically, it's both decried as lazy game design in retrospect and also very common regardless. Then I noticed I was starting to veer toward "snobbish" again and started revising my train of thought to try and consider people who aren't myself. To that end, I figured I would try to have some fun and actually ask the question rather than just think about it:

How would you, personally, the person reading this sentence, react if today was the end of power creep in Warframe? If this was as strong as our gear was going to get? Warframe takes the Pokemon Route to balance: new pokemon have tweaks, might be more specialized or less specialized than existing pokemon, and might have entirely new roles and archtypes, but overall Game Freak tries to create a world were old and new are both potentially powerful and they don't create another Gen1 Mewtwo (despite that one time they made Mega Rayquaza). Thus in Warframe, we might get cooler gear, or more "gimmicky but still useful" gear, or upgrades to our QoL in our gear, but never any more explicit power? We might get weapons with more focus on burst damage, or better sustained DPS, but our overall TTK against a pack of level 200 Bombards won't change all that much?

Arca Plasmor, Tonkor, Tiberon Prime, Galatine and Gram Primes, Rakta Cernos, Rubico Prime, Pyrana Prime, Staticor, and so on and so forth. They become the new standard for our gear. We would get new gear, but if you have the old stuff you can still at least compete?

Spoiler

As a follow-up question, how would you feel if DE went past the Pokemon Route and full-on into the Team Fortress 2 Route of reverse power creep? How would you feel if we got full-on rollbacks of power back to a perceived golden age? Arca Plasmor and Rubico Prime and Galatine/Gram Primes nerfed to levels of the Hek, Vectis Prime, and War/Paracesis. Maiming Strike nerfed from +90% to flat 90%. Blood Rush nerfed to +100%. Gara's Splinter Storm/Vitrify combo is given a hard cap. Other such nerfs to bring us down to roughly pre-ESO levels of power

 

[Marvelous_A]

We are hitting a powercreep level that shouldn't even be possible where Galatine Prime is considered weak coz Gram Prime has better stat with 5 stars disposition and Arca Plasmor has a even better perfect replacement

Edited July 2, 2019 by Marvelous_A

[Blatantfool]

It'd be inconvenient for me so I'd probably go on hiatus for a while. Come back when I feel like rubbing against the grindstone again.

 Though I'd be fine with Rivens being touched up.

[(PSN)Apoleon_amarr]

I would probably say "meh" and move on tbh

[Cubewano]

I would be largely unimpressed if the end point for this game was sticking to the standard we have crash landed in. Don't get me wrong I'd be glad for DE that they realized the route they've been following is awful, but this game doesn't need to just pump the brakes on power creep, it needs to retroactively repair all the damage it has done to gameplay. Get to that and then I'd be elated. Leaving things as they are right now for the rest of days however? That'd be disheartening. 

[Oreades]

I dunno, at first I thought it would be that I'd be totally fine with things if the current power level was just "the cap" and nothing in the future went past that......Theoretically they could keep the weapons "fresh" via new mechanics but at the same time I'm hesitant because that means the rest of the game is just going to feel stagnant. 

It really depends on what they throw at us in The New War, cause if they can't somehow up their game we're already prepared for anything they throw at us and if we have no way we can grow to face a greater threat then the game has no progression. 

 

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

Sounds good to me

be nice to play the latest high level content using a weapon I actually like instead of one that happens to be currently OP

[Oreades]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)haphazardlynamed said:

Sounds good to me

be nice to play the latest high level content using a weapon I actually like instead of one that happens to be currently OP

B-but you could do that now

[RX-3DR]

23 minutes ago, Oreades said:

B-but you could do that now

You wouldn't be able to in about a year or two when the Tiberon Prime becomes crap because 2 iterations down, the latest Prime Rifle has double the damage output with no significant downsides and you're up against level 500 enemies because they've set the level range to match said rifle.

[(PSN)Kamranos]

As someone who has seen the “go-to” weapons change over and over, I think the system is not too bad. There is always going to be something to dethrone the “best” anything of the moment. I remember years ago the same argument was had regarding the Boltor Prime. The game naturally evolves and will again.

[Etan-gK]

as bad as the power creep is, it's not going anywhere, otherwise we get the TF2 problem where we have endless lateral variants of the same base weapons but they all fall short of base weapons because base weapons don't have drawbacks

besides, enemy scaling is still bricked and always has been, they should focus on the exponential rate at which enemies scale before addressing that they keep making more powerful weapons

[so_many_watermelons]

1 hour ago, RX-3DR said:

 and you're up against level 500 enemies because they've set the level range to match said rifle.

Don't be stupid.... they would double down on the Fortuna styled enemy scaling, so that level 50s end up being equivalent to level 500s elsewhere in the star map.

Edited July 2, 2019 by so_many_watermelons

[BETAOPTICS]

Honestly I think the concept of power creep needs to be examined by observing the broader informing influences that are motivating players to demand more power. Firstly a lot of people tend to like efficiency and the feeling of accomplishment. Warframe rewards the player who is completing actions but especially those who are 'killing' an enemy by showing experience points on the screen that pop-up and the loot they drop. It is why supports are so rarely seen and used (in almost any game with RPG elements regardless of genre) and why CC has become disfavored over pure damage as well. Because the scaling of the enemies is exponential by design (to discourage endless games by applying increasing pressure), it's known and recognized flaw by the community and the developers is that it demands more powerful gear to tackle the challenges the game has to offer.

On the surface this dilemma of balance is difficult to solve because you do not want your players to feel like every kill is a chore, but at the same time if you could pick up your starter weapons and steamroll every challenge in the game, what motivation would you have to seek better gear to build or buy other than perhaps varieties sake? So the game challenges players to adapt to the games difficulty by posing exponential growth. That then informs and orients the playerbase to demand more efficient gear to tackle the challenges. Of course this completely trivializes previous challenges and in turn eliminates whichever potential fun that content used to offer (some players like challenge, others balanced, some want relaxing and easy).

I do not think these kinds of issues can be easily solved, so few games in the industry get game balance right and those games usually employ a very different kind of player experience format and genre than Warframe does. Good news is that since the game is primarily a PvE. game, there is more room for experimentation without harming the core player experience too much. From what I understand why damage 3.0 was at least temporarily scrapped by DE and why Steve says he wants to look at enemy balancing now is likely because of this symbiotic relationship that damage and enemy scaling has and it is an extensive work to fine tune the game balance for a healthier overall gameplay experience.

[0_The_F00l]

I would like it if it happened, 

But the definition of "equal power" is kinda hard to achieve practically, some mechanics are just too effective over others. 

Case in point. 

AoE weapons versus semi auto rifles. 

[RX-3DR]

6 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I would like it if it happened, 

But the definition of "equal power" is kinda hard to achieve practically, some mechanics are just too effective over others. 

Case in point. 

AoE weapons versus semi auto rifles. 

It's more of equal power in a comparable context. It's quite unrealistic to expect something like a Latron Prime to compete with the Lenz but stopping power creep generally means not having another Explosive bow with all around better stats than the Lenz, just without the Ammo Mutation as a poor "balancing disadvantage". Equipment would have to serve its own purpose rather than just replace its previous iteration in combat value. Perfect balance is impossible to achieve and crunching numbers to level the DPS between every weapon is pointless but things like the Fulmin and by some extension, the Opticor Vandal are decent examples of what we get when DE are not feeding the power creep.

People who are annoyed with power creep are annoyed by cases like the Galatine vs Gram, Braton vs Burston vs Tiberon.

[(PSN)Onder6099]

Change it right now and WF will die in few months. You should first change the players mindsets and then we can speak about removing “Powercreep”.

[Midas]

You would require a mass feedback section so we don't destroy certain weapons or warframes we love and tone them appropriately to the current level scale of 1-200

[Aldain]

Eating popcorn laughing at the meltdowns some people would have.

[seprent]

End is a strong word id be for equalization this is a how you say it a hammer to a situation that would better suit a knife

since there always going to be that one weapon or load out that just out preforms everything thats a given its something you cannot stop unless you made everything function the exact same

rivens need reining De started doing that and that ball been dropped again if their staying or be removed since we outright ignored the use DE intended for them but that one just my opinion 

i personally dont acknowledge the end game level 100+ endurance grrr gotta be able to one shot level 500s play style just not my thing some people have fun in their own way my gear with a team can handle itself most the time as sometimes i do Form > Function and i can keep pace till level 100 and im content in that 

so guess i found my own end game of doing what ever i want when i feel like it with pretty much what ever i want 

also if you touch my Corinth i will hurt you 

Edited July 2, 2019 by seprent
TFW you see errors after you post and keep editing it as you find more errors

[Birkenhoff]

This game would die. I think it's success is mainly build on acquireing new players who heared of space ninjas. The gameplay is very satisfying at the beginning and starts becoming more and more boring the longer you play this game. This game is build around new players and IMO this is the reason power creep is essential to keep it alive. 

Just look at the typical vent topics. There's always at least one reply like: You need to take a break from this game. 

 

[0_The_F00l]

28 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

It's more of equal power in a comparable context. It's quite unrealistic to expect something like a Latron Prime to compete with the Lenz but stopping power creep generally means not having another Explosive bow with all around better stats than the Lenz, just without the Ammo Mutation as a poor "balancing disadvantage". Equipment would have to serve its own purpose rather than just replace its previous iteration in combat value. Perfect balance is impossible to achieve and crunching numbers to level the DPS between every weapon is pointless but things like the Fulmin and by some extension, the Opticor Vandal are decent examples of what we get when DE are not feeding the power creep.

People who are annoyed with power creep are annoyed by cases like the Galatine vs Gram, Braton vs Burston vs Tiberon.

Not sure i fully agree though I get your point, 

If you are comparing in the same class (Burst, semi, auto, aoe,) your argument is valid. 

But if I cut across all weapons of same type (primary, secondary, melee) the problem is apparent.

I was more saying that it would be difficult to classify power based purely on stats and mechanics too need to be considered. 

 

[RX-3DR]

18 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Not sure i fully agree though I get your point, 

If you are comparing in the same class (Burst, semi, auto, aoe,) your argument is valid. 

But if I cut across all weapons of same type (primary, secondary, melee) the problem is apparent.

I was more saying that it would be difficult to classify power based purely on stats and mechanics too need to be considered. 

Yes, it's difficult to specify exactly how much stronger a Tiberon Prime is over a Braton Prime or a Burston Prime. However, that's only if you're looking at mostly paper calculations and it doesn't add up unless you are constantly basing off the next weapon on the latest. The reason why having guns that are slightly stronger than another becomes a problem is when you make that gun the next standard and whatever comes after has to beat it.

Personally, I don't think it's a big deal if one burst-fire rifle is stronger than another in DPS output as long as there is a significant enough distinction between them in other areas such as magazine size, reload speed and fire rate where one ends up doing better in target rich environments while the other does better with knocking out heavier targets with a higher damage output. Of course, the difference in damage output shouldn't be so significant where the advantages are almost entirely removed, especially in the context of what Warframe has become.

I specifically brought up the Opticor Vandal for this where while it is a paper upgrade, it is not perceived as a power creep scenario because the functionality of the weapon has shifted to becoming more friendly towards dealing with multiple targets as opposed to just being Opticor x1.5 damage. As long as the next charge cannon weapon isn't based off the Opticor Vandal's stats with the Opticor's functionality, no one would really perceive it as an alarming power creep issue.

Edited July 2, 2019 by RX-3DR

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, BETAOPTICS said:

It is why supports are so rarely seen and used (in almost any game with RPG elements regardless of genre) and why CC has become disfavored over pure damage as well. Because the scaling of the enemies is exponential by design (to discourage endless games by applying increasing pressure), it's known and recognized flaw by the community and the developers is that it demands more powerful gear to tackle the challenges the game has to offer.

This has actually seen a reversal in Warframe's lifetime. When I started playing Warframe (five years ago), frames like Equinox and Gara would have been looked down on for petering out. The meta was Frost/Nekros (for Defense and Survival respectively), Trinity (to make the team invincible), and two support frames between Nyx, Loki, Nova (including Speedva), Vauban, or Rhino -- not to kill the enemy, but to freeze them in place. Mesa and Saryn were also popular, but stacking them two to a team was considered bad composition

It's only within the last 30 months or so that raw damage entered the meta -- not coincidentally, after Maiming Body Rush was added to the game and after Saryn was reworked a second time to allow infinite damage that also stripped armor. The invention of the Arca Plasmor just cemented the process and made players re-evaluate Maimquinox

[JackHargreav]

The f*ck is powercreep?

[bibmobello]

Power Creep is a problem on normal missions, after level 150 you see many weapons dealing tons of damage are pretty useless while other "crappy" weapons are better. This is the reason why people ask for a decent endgame.