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Dev Workshop: The Arsenal Divide


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19 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

You're right about 3 and 4, but I really can't understand how so many of you think the Galvanized mods and primary Arcanes aren't going to be immediate BiS.

  1. The new mods will be BiS and mandatory. Split Chamber gives you 90% Multishot, Galvanized Chamber will give you 80-200% Multishot. It's flat out better. Same with all the others.
  2. The new Arcanes are extra damage in a new slot that doesn't currently exist, so we're getting more while giving up nothing. All three are +360% Damage when fully ramped up, so you'll use whichever is most convenient or has preferred extra bonuses. The choice between the three might have niches, but they'll all be mandatory.

With those arcanes, people might actually drop Serration.

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1 minute ago, Aldain said:

Well...unless we're talking power creep...then it's kind of terrible.

Seriously between that arcane and a few of the Galvanized mods I fully expect the Kuva Bramma to show up as the best weapon in the game...again.

You could plop Hunter Munitions on it with Viral+Heat+Bonus Radiation and you've got a self-priming AoE weapon, add in Galvanized Chamber for 200% multishot and Galvanized Aptitude for an Extra 80% damage on top of causing three of the better procs (and blast) and the 300% from Primary Merciless with added Reload Speed and Ammo Maximum with Vigilante Supplies and the usual Crit/Damage mods and I can't see a single thing that can survive that mess.

Of course being a Kuva weapon it can also FIT all of that once forma'd five times too, so honestly this workshop is just "the strong get stronger" while the weak get more forgotten.

True, but I'm talking from the perspective of min-maxing here.

We both know multipliers are an unsustainable way to facilitate character progression.

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1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

True, but I'm talking from the perspective of min-maxing here.

We both know multipliers are an unsustainable way to facilitate character progression.

Yeah, I just had to put that whole Kuva Bramma thing out there because it makes literally everyone who said "THEY KILLED THE BRAMMA!" look like clowns now.

Hell, I'd imagine with all those power creeped mods that even the soon-to-be-"nerfed" Kuva Nukor could do the same thing.

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Don't forget other players, hard to get kills if someone kills faster than you, so maybe nerfs to warframe incoming
Also you have to use a meta weapon or you won't get those buffs because other players are killing faster than you

Also assuming that there are some time where you don't spam "fire" button, you have to "restart" which is annoying
Gameplay be like 0 - 100 - 0 - 100

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In this post I will be giving my suggestions for changes that should be made to what's coming in update 30.5 as per what we've been told through the dev-workshops. (definitely read those first)

I'll be going through "the arsenal divide" suggestions first, "helminth grows a new appetite" second, and "parazon rework" last.

 

 

 

 

*The Arsenal Divide*

Gun Stats

It was previously stated on a devstream that "we are not going to be changing the stats of every gun in the game." -Reb. I do not see any possible way to rebalance the arsenal without doing so. Melee has had this done for them a while ago, and this is why melee is so strong as compared to guns now, so to refuse to do the same to guns leaves the tables lop-sided at best.

Essentially what I'm saying here is, you need to go in, and change every gun's stats, in order to properly balance them to melee stats. If you just add arcanes, not everyone has them, nor are they easy to get, as they are generally closer to current endgame content. If you buff and add mods, there is now a mod divide and unbalance. So in short, buff gun stats, or this rebalance won't work, it'll just be pawning the unbalance off to another system.

I cannot stress enough, how much you need to go in and change the stats of each gun, just like you did with melee. Its a tedious process, I get it, but rebalancing always is, otherwise your not "balancing" anything at the end of the day.

 

New Gun Arcanes

First off, the kitgun arcanes should be equitable on regular guns if your going to do this, that's just common sense. But off to the actual arcanes and suggestions.

12 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

PRIMARY MERCILESS

On Kill:
+30% Damage for 6s. Stacks up to 12x.
+30% Reload Speed
+100% Ammo Max

The more you kill, the more damage you can build up. Groovy!
 


The second Primary Arcane is designed with high precision weapons in mind. Make your Headshots count for greater performance (excluding AOE headshots)!:

PRIMARY DEADHEAD

On Headshot Kill:
120% Damage for 24s. Stacks up to 3x.
+30% to Headshot Multiplier.
-50% Weapon Recoil

 

The final Primary Arcane is designed with using your full loadout in mind, enter Melee synergy:

PRIMARY DEXTERITY

On Melee Kill: +60% Damage for 20s. Stacks up to 6x.



Primary Merciless
For this, get rid of the ammo max, its simply not going to be useful to any weapon, and even if it is, we always have team ammo restores.

Primary Deadhead
Get rid of the negative recoil. Messing with recoil in any way is a very quick way to throw someone's aim off dramatically. This is only going to cause way more problems then it solves if left on.

Primary Dexterity
I honestly don't see a difference between this one and the first one, which brings me to one of the points i'd like to make.

If all these arcanes need to have +Damage to function and make guns viable, its probably better to then just buff the damage of every gun, as clearly to they don't have enough if +Damage is required on each arcane. We don't need to go over the secondary arcanes, they are exactly the same as the primary ones, and I'd recommend the exact same changes.

 

 

 

 

*Helminth Grows A New Apatite*

There isn't much i have to suggest here, only 1 major thing, the new "helminth invigorations", get rid of them.

12 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Every week, your Helminth will have an Affinity toward 3 Random Warframes. You can interact with Helminth with these Warframes to gain select Weekly Buffs (one Offensive and one Utility/Defense)! For example:

 

Zephyr: 200% Power Strength and Immune To Status
Atlas: 200% Primary Critical Chance and +1000 Armor
Excalibur: 250% Melee Damage and 75% power Efficiency


This is the sum of what they are, and as you can probably see, its RNG. Boosts that you can't take off once collected is a big nope. The whole thing about helminth is that we control it, we get to decide what happens, and what goes on. This is essentially like if you sat in the chair, and were given a random ability swapped out, entirely out of your control, with no way to decide which ability was swapped.

Now for the actual buffs
(A) We don't need them, with modding, and arcanes, we are already too powerful as it is. At this rate we're going to need an elite steel path, "titanium path".
(B) They aren't always helpful, having +range on a build that needs as little range as possible entirely breaks the build, and there will be countless cases of this.
(C) With how its setup, this doesn't encourage players to play different frames, it encourages them to always play 1 frame, their favorite, as after 10 weeks, the frame they login with, will automatically be chosen for buffs the following week, thus causing players to only use that frame to ensure it has the buffs.

 




*Parazon Rework*

Finally, the parazon rework. Personally my issues with it aren't it having little purpose, its the animations. Its awkward to use, has very slow animations, camera whipping everywhere, and by the time you've parazon killed 1 enemy, you could easily have killed 10 in its place. Simply put, the parazon is too inconvenient.

I don't think its going to matter how easy they make it to open an enemy to a parazon kill, or what mods you are able to equip for different effects. So long as the animation remains slow, awkward, and inconvenient as it is now, i don't see anyone using it at all, regardless of the changes.
 

Having said all that, i do have some changes to the proposed mods that will be added.

12 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

ew Mods!

Your Parazon Mod slots will have some new options in Sisters of Parvos!

New Parazon Mods

 

5 New Parazon Mods are here! Find them all today to add new power and Utility to your Parazon! 

 

  • Power Drain - 100% chance for next ability cast to gain +50% Ability Strength.

  • Malicious Code - 50% chance for enemies within 15m to cower in fear for 8 seconds.

  • Hard Reset - Execute 3 Mercy Kills within 40 seconds to revive a fallen Sentinel or Companion. 


 

Design Council Contributions: 

  • Swift Mercy - Speed of Mercy kills increased by 50%.

  • Firewall - Reduces damage by 75% during hacking. 

Power Drain: Change to "100% chance to completely restore shields" or something of that caliber. Anything that affect warframe ability stats, should be mods that you equip on the warframe, not your tools. This can mess with builds that require low power strength, and thus would be impractical to use. Sure the player could just "not use" the mod, but then what's the point of adding it?

Swift Mercy: Change to "(X)% movement speed on each mercy kill, stacking up to (X)". If you need to add a mod to speed up an animations, you should probably just speed up the base animation because its too slow. This will have the same problems limbo does with natural talent, being borderline required for any build, limiting your options.

 

 

 

With that, those are my proposed changes to some of the things coming with update 30.5. Just to reiterate some of the more important bits though.

Gun stats need to be changed, just like melee stats were.
and
Helminth invigorations is a bad idea, and IMO should be scrapped. Its a perfect example of adding RNG where it doesn't belong, and making players grotesquely overpowered to the point where steel path, will needs its own steel path.
 

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10 hours ago, ByteCruncher. said:

Please make it so the damage from the arcanes is a final damage multiplier, not additive with base damage mods. 

Oh yeah that is really important. Otherwise it won't actually mean much in steel path.

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Let's just say that if it's added in that form, DE will need like 3 to 4 following patches to fix the problems of this "fix"

Edit yeah seems like back then with the railjackupdate feedback where they group every "topic" in the same "trashcan" so nobody has any idea about who is talking about what
Instead of having a topic for each aspect of the incoming changes

Edited by EnwoQ
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Please reconsider "On Kill" effects. They are a Catch-22. If they work, you do not need them, and if you need them, they do not work.

Making them trigger on hit/headshot instead, with a greater maximum number of weaker individual buff stacks (so they have the same maximum level of effectiveness) would allow a combo-like ramping effect that will allow kills in the first place. Otherwise, mods that affect damage all the time will be used in favor of these.

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hace 2 horas, Tesseract7777 dijo:

I get it, no one is happy when the things they enjoy using become weaker. 

But, I tempered my expectations. 

I'm not disappointed like you, because I expected this, and I resigned myself to them toning it down at some point for the health of the game. 

You will be happier if you accept in advance, that anything truly king of the hill, is probably going to get smacked down a bit at some point. 

At least they are giving us a couple forma, to do whatever we want with, if we had a Kuva Nukor. And they are throwing us a few more forma if we are rank five or higher to help us start adjusting to the new changes. 

"Giving us a couple forma"

Literally 10 mins in a survival fissure, 6 mins in a capture fissure... Thank god they give us a couple forma. FFsake, lets be serious at least 😶

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No joke atm I think just leave the "buffs" aside, give us the nerfs, idc

But those "buffs" with "on kill" will make public gaming the new pvp mode

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So I criticized Galvanized Aptitude out of instinct because I think aptitude is just terrible. Sorry, I was wrong about Galvanized Aptitude. I did not realize it is stacks on stacks. That it applies for each condition. It's like a condition overload for guns. Now I am really eager to get that one.

But the ON KILL trigger needs to be ON HIT for sure. I'm sorry but I don't see how this will work in steel path as ON KILL. You empty an entire magazine on one single enemy trying to get a damage bonus to activate? That is an extremely awkward thing to do in steel path. ON KILL trigger just makes strong weapons stronger while weak weapons can't even get off the ground.

Edited by Redfeather75
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4 minutes ago, XzWasPzX said:

"Giving us a couple forma"

Literally 10 mins in a survival fissure, 6 mins in a capture fissure... Thank god they give us a couple forma. FFsake, lets be serious at least 😶

If they didn't, people would whinge that DE didn't give them forma. 

They can't win. 

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Btw just realize for most people prime fury is now mandatory and locked behind daily login, nice around average 100 days for most people to get that mod

Edit for those between 200 and 400 days, either primed fury or primed sure-footed meaning around 300 days waiting
Nice update incoming

Edited by EnwoQ
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So, in essence: Berserker is now entirely replaced with Primed Fury and Quickening. Half of the nerfed primaries are now returning to slightly unnerfed parameters, shotguns finally get some decent mods instead of being entirely worse than rifle mods for no real reason, and secondaries stay the second strongest archetype in the game behind melee, and Kuva Nukor gets a 50% reduction in its usefulness (small change? It chains to half the enemies it did before, would be like removing half the radius from Lenz and calling that a "small change" when that "small change" is 50% of what gives the weapon its usefulness.)

This addresses 0% of the issues with guns. Guns are useless versus SCALING, they can be faster than melee due to simply range in the end of steel path's base scaling. Their base stats needed to be increased first, see how that works out, then release these mods. Why? Who cares if I can get a stacking bonus to damage, status chance, and multishot on kills if my gun CANNOT KILL THE ENEMY IN THE FIRST PLACE.

THAT'S why your Berserker mod was originally based on critical hits and not kills, that's why condition overload requires status effects to exist on the target, rather than status effect kills. Because getting the scaling via killing something only works if you can kill them already. Before all the "unintentionally powerful" mods were added, melees took a long time to kill anything. Melees have an easier time addressing this because they don't have AMMO. You can swing forever unless you die. If I have to use 540 ammo on one enemy to kill them, and then get back 20 shots + my last magazine, 120% damage that only brings me back to where I started before this patch -- since in order to use most any of these mods I would have to take off things like Serration and Split Chamber --  does absolutely nothing.

As such, almost all of the Galvanized mods except shotgun are pointless. The only arcanes that will end up being used are Primary Dexterity, and Primary Merciless for Eidolons as you can't precisely kill Vomvalysts. Primary Dead Head is mostly useful for Snipers, which are mostly not useful for the rest of the game, and ironically will only be used for its passive headshot bonus as in the Profit-Taker Orb, you don't need to kill adds, in Eidolons you can't headshot Vomvalysts and the Open World is too dead for you to pick off Grineer, and the Exploiter Orb your weapon choice is only useful for Coolant Raknoids, who can die to any decent secondary.

The hierarchy of weapons will not changed at all, what-so-ever in any of the relevant contexts. Melees have just been made less powerful with no real compensation other than things like Ignis Wraith clearing out low level missions 0.1 seconds faster per kill due to requiring 1 less tick.

 

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Hmm, so after having read about all the changes, I'm slowly starting to think, that the game's downward spiral cannot be stopped anymore... Certain stuff cannot be improved by putting out baindaid after bandaid, it needs to be addressed properly instead, finally. Sentinel survivability for example. We got the Shepherd aura, we have Repair Kit mods simply lying around in every Corpus ship tileset (so somebody at DE must have realized, that the Crewman and their Supras kill our sentinels in the blink of an eye) and now we get this Parazon mod... Not to even mention Primed Regen. Why all this fuss, DE, seriously? Nothing of this will change the fact, that sentinels lack the survivability of pets due to their inferior mods and the simple fact, that they can't be revived. So why not simply make them revivable, too? What's the big deal? I like sentinels, because they float next to me and not wander off 3 rooms away to then get stuck under a stairway. I like them, because they simply attack the nearest target instead of constantly turning around and doing nothing like MOAs, because the AI can't decide to focus on a specific target... Which seemlessly brings us to the elephant in the room, that gets ignored since years and is also a main reason for guns underperforming and single shot and precision weapons getting completely ignored by most players: The absolutely outdated enemy AI, that is completely overwhelmed by the game's pacing and the overall action going on. I remember times 5 years ago, when I was able to perform consistent headshots with my Lex Prime and having a lot of fun doing so, which is absolutely impossible nowadays. With enemies constantly jumping on an off crates (which have been put everywhere to shorten shooting lanes and break the line of sight for abilities, no wonder no one plays Defense missions anymore, except Hydron, considering how blocked and overall terribly those tiles are designed), running in and out of cover, running sideways all the time like crabs or simply having hitboxes that can't be critted upfront, because they held the heads sideways (looking at you Nox, cough, cough), using such weapons is a tedious and unfun experience and simply not viable. And that's the reason, why 9 out of 10 players that are around MR 12 or lower, that I encounter in public groups run an Acceltra as their Primery. And none of your melee nerfs and bandaid mods will change that, because the root cause for the issues gets simply ignored, not to mention, that "on kill" effects won't do anything for guns in SP, if they already struggle there... Introducing another layer of power RNG into the game via the Helminth system (and potentially offering an item in the market later on, that will allow you to choose your buff for Plat - Hi Tencent...) is another horrible idea, that will split the playerbase (certain buffs required in recruitment), will srew up competitive events (not the right buffs available right now - bad luck, better luck next time)  and might even render certain builds completely useless ( sorry Speednova, you got Powerstrengh now...). What happened to the DE, that introduced ground breaking improvements to the game like Parcour 2.0.? Those time are long gone, obviously, nowadays all we get is bandaid stuff, that doesn't fix/improve anything and of course nerfs to stuff, that got buffed/changed just a few months ago to actually be viable or fun for a short time (MfD, Glaives, etc...). Sad times.

Edited by (XBOX)Kuhl MC
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13 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

With all the information about how we are lessening power in some ways, let’s move onto the way we are increasing the power available to Primary & Secondary weapon options. 

The new mods look fun, but there's two big points missed:

1. Existing mods and arcanes aren't touched at all. Sure, we closed the gap between melees and firearms, but what about the primary / secondary gap? The shotgun problem? Melee certainly is the biggest divide but that doesn't mean other gaps don't exist.

2. AoE isn't mentioned. It's a huge reason why certain weapons perform so much better, even (sometimes especially) at higher-level content. It's straightforward math: 200 damage x 1 target, versus 60 damage x 10 targets. (Though in reality, it's actually 600 damage x 5-6 targets, so...y'know...)

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad and all about having guns be more interesting. But don't be too surprised if the usage graph looks shockingly similar to what we've already got.

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Yeah... a LOT of (justified) negativity,  DE.
You were told time and again (except by Potato-man and who cares what he thinks anymore) "NO MORE NERFS" 
this goes double for the melee.  I know you've already decided to ram these ill advised changes down our throats because of one or two people squealing about 'Melee is new meta!  Waaaaaaa!'
Yes.
Melee was the new meta.  You MADE it so and it was good.  The Tenno are NINJA's; masters of BLADE and gun.
The Steel Path is overseen by a SAMURAI -ahem- Dax, a master of the SWORD.

Sword = melee.

 

Thinks this over. REAL hard.
Remove these boneheaded NOT minor nerfs.
I feel sorry for the poor coders who had to do long hours to create the code to make these unwanted changes.

Edited by Shemarria
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"on kill" we get buff what we can already kill but does nothing with what we can't kill or boss fights
"on kill" competition between players nerfs to warframe and meta weapons needed
Many melee become not viable
Two mandatory prime mods behind daily login, player at 200 days who didn't choose primed fury need 400 days to be "meta" again
Aoe guns (or weapons who can kill atm) benefit but other weapons don't benefit much from "on kill" trigger
Did I miss something

In summary

Gameplay will be annoying as hell with upkeep of buffs and competition of players to get kills
Lots of player will be annoyed thinking that optimal build is only achievable with 400 days of daily login and not gameplay

Edit: with those changes we will get for sure scaling warframe ability nerfs in the next update

Edited by EnwoQ
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