Already lost interest in Kahl's Missions

[DreisterDino]

Am i alone with this?

 

Let me start with saying that i enjoyed TNW and Kahls section and that i was looking forward to this and some different gameplay. I also want to point out that i am not after efficiency in Warframe, so i have no problem with missions taking some time to do or missions just "feeling slower". But after one rotation, i think i have seen enough already. Why is it like that?

 

1. no variety

In Warframe we have to repeat missions over and over again, sure thats nothing new. But here, we have only 3 different missions, and DE already said they will not add any more and just focus on the three missions we have. What makes this more of a problem for me is the fact that every mission plays out exactly the same each time. In regular Warframe, at least i can make it different and keep it interesting by switching Warframes, Weapons, my Playstyle. Not here though. We even get the same weapons at the same time each time (for example, you always get the Exergis after completing the little "puzzle"). Edit: Hell, even the enemys spawn at the same location each time.

 

2. collectables

a) a few of them would have been ok, and some like removing Veils are actually implemented well and fit thematically i would say. But besides that this feels like one big, annoying and boring Easter-Egg Hunt. And imo it distracts from the original mission way too much. I am sure not one single person who enjoyed the gameplay in TNW said "i wish DE made me look for random collectables in every possible corner of the map".

 

b) The Topic in which DE said they want to make the progress of collectables cumulative is almost one month ago now. I dont know why it is so difficult to change this (tbh i dont even think it is, probably just not a priority for them), but imo this is one of the most needed changes if they really want to keep this so focussed on collectables. I expected this to be part of a Hotfix one or two weeks after the announcement, but ok. At first i was kinda looking forward to this, but at this point i dont even care anymore, it doesnt address the underlying issues, it only makes it slightly more bearable.

 

 

 

To keep me interested, they really have to make changes to the basic structure of the missions (not gonna happen, i know^^).

 

1. Regarding variety: Either let us chose or have a rotation of the characters which are part of the camp and the weapons we get to use.

2. regarding collectables: i personally would just remove the majority of this and look for other tasks, because again, this is not what people liked about TNW. Quote from myself addressing DE in the mentioned topic :

Spoiler

You asked this question related to AoE:

Zitat

“Is this playstyle disruptive to other players?” 

Maybe, you should turn this into this when deciding if challenges are good or bad:

Zitat

“Is this challenge disruptive to the original mission task?” 

Because all these tasks make it so that if you really want to do them, you basically stop playing the mission itself. If i wanted to finish the rest now, i wouldnt care about the mission anymore - i would only run around and try to find those collectables until i got them and then return to the mission once i am done. Just one task like removing the Veils would be fine (and that one is implemented best, you can basically still do it while you do the mission because if you just pay a little attention, you will notice them) but this is just too much with a bad implementation on top.

 

To be honest, i am surprised myself how quickly i lost interest in this and how DE managed to miss the core of what people liked about it (again) and why they wanted more. I already ignored the whole collectable stuff after the first time, i was only doing what i wanted to do and "didnt burn myself out" - still it was enough to get bored.

[sunderthefirmament]

11 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

In Warframe we have to repeat missions over and over again, sure thats nothing new. But here, we have only 3 different missions, and DE already said they will not add any more and just focus on the three missions we have. What makes this more of a problem for me is the fact that every mission plays out exactly the same each time. In regular Warframe, at least i can make it different and keep it interesting by switching Warframes, Weapons, my Playstyle. Not here though. We even get the same weapons at the same time each time (for example, you always get the Exergis after completing the little "puzzle"). Edit: Hell, even the enemys spawn at the same location each time.

This is a huge issue with Kahl gameplay.  There's absolutely no variety outside of whatever collectibles we have to hunt down each time.  My other least favorite grind in this game, the path to Profit-Taker, had a similar problem.  It was the same level every time, with the same enemies in the same spots.  You could at least change your frame and weapons though.  Kahl doesn't have that.  And, to make matters worse, Kahl's grind never ends.  If you want all the shards, you'll be doing this every week until you quit the game.  At least with the repetitive build up to Profit-Taker there was a light at the end of the tunnel.

 

I think it's easy to take Warframe's inherent variety for granted.  You don't realize how much the different tiles in a mission contribute to the experience feeling at least somewhat fresh until they're stripped away.

 

The ideal scenario for Kahl would be to introduce an alternate stock acquisition method.  Give us a way to earn stock towards our weekly cap outside of Kahl's unenjoyable nonsense.  Players that enjoy this monotony can keep enjoying it.  Players that don't can continue to play Warframe while playing Warframe, as opposed to this meme content.  It was fine in a one-off quest.  It is very much not fine in an endless, once-per-week grind.

[DreisterDino]

vor 1 Minute schrieb sunderthefirmament:

It was fine in a one-off quest.  It is very much not fine in an endless, once-per-week grind.

Indeed.

 

This feels a bit like they took the structure of a Singleplayer story-driven game in which you play a mission once (or a handful of times more on a different difficulty) and just copy-pasted that structure into Warframe which demands you to play it again and again without any changes to that structure to make it work with the different setting.

[LillyRaccune]

3 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

Because all these tasks make it so that if you really want to do them, you basically stop playing the mission itself. If i wanted to finish the rest now, i wouldnt care about the mission anymore - i would only run around and try to find those collectables until i got them and then return to the mission once i am done. Just one task like removing the Veils would be fine (and that one is implemented best, you can basically still do it while you do the mission because if you just pay a little attention, you will notice them) but this is just too much with a bad implementation on top.

I agree with this 100%. Trying to complete the challenges requires a complete mental disconnect from the immersive part of the mission in order to complete them. For example "5 kills in 3 seconds" I had to make a dedicated playthru just to accomplish that, I did my best to kill as few enemies as possible until I set off the alarms and then ran in circles like a sheepdog to herd the enemies together to zap them with the Blue Girl Blaster 4000 (aka a plasma torch weapon that makes makes no sense in the game mechanics or lore).

3 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

To be honest, i am surprised myself how quickly i lost interest in this and how DE managed to miss the core of what people liked about it (again) and why they wanted more.

It is hard for me to express what I liked about the Kahl part of TNW, I think it was more about the trench warfare and less about being a grineer. But there was a feeling of desparation, that was what really made it feel important to me. Give me a trench and I'll shoot tenno SKOOM all day long (because I like the universe), but if I could have played as an infested character I would have been happy too. (I digress)

When I first started playing warframe, we tenno were the saviors in a hopeless star system. But the more lore and quests I completed, the more it felt like tenno were invaders interfering in everyone's business. The Myconians were perfectly fine without us, Steel Meridian were fine without us, Solaris United wasn't threatened with extinction until after we "helped Thursby". We tenno are showing how much we "enjoy bathing in spilled ichor and viscera". The universe doesn't need us.

But in TNW everyone needed Kahl to succeed, so it felt really satisfying. At least that is how I see it.

4 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

But here, we have only 3 different missions, and DE already said they will not add any more and just focus on the three missions we have.

Really? They did officially announce that? I missed the memo.

That's really disappointing.

16 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

Am i alone with this?

I don't hate it, but if the end result is just to make a tiny little content island that is exclusive to post-TNW (aka "end game") players... then yes I am a bit disappointed.

[trst]

As always though, if it doesn't interest you then don't do it. It doesn't take that many weeks to empty the shop and if you choose to do it regardless for the extra Shard then just deal with it for the entire 30 minutes a week it takes. Everyone has, or eventually will, invested far more time into content they didn't enjoy.

It's just such a short and honestly inoffensive "grind" that I don't see any reason to rework it into something entirely different. If it was something that took hours a week or was structured like a regular Syndicate then there would be more of an issue.

Plus there are players who enjoy the difference in pace as a break from the rest of the game. And this is the first addition of such content where it retains a reason to run it unlike other slow activities like Medallions or fishing. And even if the variety is low (which isn't that bad as some of the bonus objectives have been changing) it's still offering variety as a weekly break from the main game.

[LillyRaccune]

1 minute ago, trst said:

It's just such a short and honestly inoffensive "grind"

I also agree with this. I like having access to variety and the missions (including extra playthrus for challenges) take me about an hour per week. Because it's a solo mission I can pause anytime I want, and ultimately I want the extra shards more than any disappointments I have from the missions.

Maybe DE should add meaningful rewards to every type of game mode. Happy Zephyr and Wyrmius need rewards (and maybe Conclave too).

[cute_moth.npc]

I stopped already.

Psychologically, I literally can't stand creeping around these maps looking for things and facing the anxiety of missing something. As the timer creeps up and the last parts remain unfinished, it feels like a really unwanted and unrewarding activity especially when I finally decide to just give up and try again because maybe the thing I was investing that time into finding isn't even there, it didn't spawn enough of one or something..

It's an awful feeling. I do not feel like something that detracts from the game experience like this is worth getting shards a little bit faster. I am the sort of gamer that likes a vicious boss that kicks me down over and over before I finally beat it because there is a sense of accomplishment, but that does not translate over to finding a skateboard part hidden behind a box. 

If you told me I had to get both shards by beating the archon with just my operator on a hellish second round bonus run I would totally do it, but not 4 scavenger hunt objectives in one mission, I think that is sort of just abusive ^^;

I feel like it's too bad because I think the missions by themselves are unique and they put a lot of work into them.. These would be great as part of a story quest.

[sunderthefirmament]

9 minutes ago, trst said:

As always though, if it doesn't interest you then don't do it. It doesn't take that many weeks to empty the shop and if you choose to do it regardless for the extra Shard then just deal with it for the entire 30 minutes a week it takes. Everyone has, or eventually will, invested far more time into content they didn't enjoy.

This game can be boiled down to mobility, grind, powercreep, and bugs.  Skipping Kahl means skipping powercreep.  The "optional" argument falls flat when you remember that the whole game is optional.  And if you stick with this game long enough, you'll spend more time with Kahl than you will with those old, one-off grinds (or two-off now with Helminth) like Harrow or Nidus.  Furthermore, 30 minutes is a bit of a lowball depending on the challenges and glitches present.

 

9 minutes ago, trst said:

It's just such a short and honestly inoffensive "grind" that I don't see any reason to rework it into something entirely different. If it was something that took hours a week or was structured like a regular Syndicate then there would be more of an issue.

It's not short though.  Yeah, you can get it done in under an hour a week.  But it repeats each week.  Forever.

 

9 minutes ago, trst said:

Plus there are players who enjoy the difference in pace as a break from the rest of the game. And this is the first addition of such content where it retains a reason to run it unlike other slow activities like Medallions or fishing. And even if the variety is low (which isn't that bad as some of the bonus objectives have been changing) it's still offering variety as a weekly break from the main game.

I respect that other people enjoy this.  My ideal solution is to provide an alternate way to get stock.  Keep the weekly stock cap, but let people who hate Kahl get their stock in another way.  Leave Kahl gameplay as is for those who like it.  Also, this is obviously anecdotal, but the subreddit is already starting to turn against Kahl.  It was all "rah rah brothers rah rah" when it launched, but now the reality of the tedium is starting to set in.  People who enjoyed him at first are losing interest.  Not everyone, obviously.  And no, I don't have firm numbers.  It's just something I've noticed.

 

And I can't believe I'm defending fishing, but at least you can use your frame and arsenal to optimize that experience.  Your thousands of hours of progression are completely and utterly ignored for Kahl.  It's not a content island.  It's a separate game.

[sunderthefirmament]

5 minutes ago, LillyRaccune said:

Maybe DE should add meaningful rewards to every type of game mode. Happy Zephyr and Wyrmius need rewards (and maybe Conclave too).

Sweet Christ no.  The only redeemable thing about those minigames is that I can safely skip them.

 

Warframe doesn't need to be every game.  It doesn't need to be the only game we play.  I know there's a reason for DE to make it a "theme park" with countless attractions.  It's a game-as-a-service after all.  But I really think they should stick to their strengths.  And their strengths are not meme content like Flappy Zephyr and Kahl.

[Slayer-.]

31 minutes ago, trst said:

As always though, if it doesn't interest you then don't do it. It doesn't take that many weeks to empty the shop and if you choose to do it regardless for the extra Shard then just deal with it for the entire 30 minutes a week it takes. Everyone has, or eventually will, invested far more time into content they didn't enjoy.

It's just such a short and honestly inoffensive "grind" that I don't see any reason to rework it into something entirely different. If it was something that took hours a week or was structured like a regular Syndicate then there would be more of an issue.

Plus there are players who enjoy the difference in pace as a break from the rest of the game. And this is the first addition of such content where it retains a reason to run it unlike other slow activities like Medallions or fishing. And even if the variety is low (which isn't that bad as some of the bonus objectives have been changing) it's still offering variety as a weekly break from the main game.

Well said, I like the slow pace of Kahl, not hard to do each week with the mix of things within it and then back to the main game until the next rotation. 

[trst]

19 minutes ago, LillyRaccune said:

Maybe DE should add meaningful rewards to every type of game mode. Happy Zephyr and Wyrmius need rewards (and maybe Conclave too).

Those already have exclusive items. All the minigames give a decoration and Conclave has all the weapon skins, a syandana, and armor sets you can't get from the market.

Though it would be neat to see some kind of evergreen reward thrown into them as well.

 

17 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

This game can be boiled down to mobility, grind, powercreep, and bugs.  Skipping Kahl means skipping powercreep.  The "optional" argument falls flat when you remember that the whole game is optional.  And if you stick with this game long enough, you'll spend more time with Kahl than you will with those old, one-off grinds (or two-off now with Helminth) like Harrow or Nidus.  Furthermore, 30 minutes is a bit of a lowball depending on the challenges and glitches present.

It's not short though.  Yeah, you can get it done in under an hour a week.  But it repeats each week.  Forever.

Except it is entirely optional since Kahl missions aren't the only source of Shards. You only "need" to run them long enough to clear out the shop and continue after that if you want Shards faster.

And you only need to repeat it for as long as you have a "need" to. Again you can already get Shards from Hunts and you don't even need to have Shards slotted onto every single frame since they're reusable.

17 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

I respect that other people enjoy this.  My ideal solution is to provide an alternate way to get stock.  Keep the weekly stock cap, but let people who hate Kahl get their stock in another way.  Leave Kahl gameplay as is for those who like it.  Also, this is obviously anecdotal, but the subreddit is already starting to turn against Kahl.  It was all "rah rah brothers rah rah" when it launched, but now the reality of the tedium is starting to set in.  People who enjoyed him at first are losing interest.  Not everyone, obviously.  And no, I don't have firm numbers.  It's just something I've noticed.

Yes, alternate Stock sources would be the ideal alternative instead of reworking the Kahl missions themselves. Even if players get tired if it it should remain there as is as a break from regular gameplay. That would also be in line with how DE dealt with the other slow activities with Thumpers, Orb Vallis Containers, and Vaults/Obelisks dropping mining and fishing components.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

1 hour ago, DreisterDino said:

DE already said they will not add any more and just focus on the three missions we have

Christ thats painful to read. If thats true, then i agree with everyone else saying remove it from the process of aquiring archon shards. That crap will get old so quick

Thats so depressing

1 hour ago, DreisterDino said:

collectables

I dont usually mind this. As long as they arent in the same spots. When i mind it i skip, its worth it

1 hour ago, DreisterDino said:

Regarding variety: Either let us chose or have a rotation of the characters which are part of the camp and the weapons we get to use.

Greaattt idea 💙💙💙 new abilities and all

1 hour ago, DreisterDino said:

To be honest, i am surprised myself how quickly i lost interest in this and how DE managed to miss the core of what people liked about it (again) and why they wanted more.

Maybe they always intended for it to be a content island. The collectibles and what not are thrown in there like trophies to a single player game, best obtained when the player has reached the end and has nothing else better to do.

The end if khal missions.

Its a shame. Im eventually going to stop doing them now too once that repetition and no hope for the future additions starts settling in.

Seems like i waste of time, money, and effort if it was just going to be a content island. R i p

[DreisterDino]

vor 42 Minuten schrieb trst:

As always though, if it doesn't interest you then don't do it. It doesn't take that many weeks to empty the shop and if you choose to do it regardless for the extra Shard then just deal with it for the entire 30 minutes a week it takes. Everyone has, or eventually will, invested far more time into content they didn't enjoy.

And as always, this reply misses the point 😉 But i was waiting for this, just as i wait for "why do you complain, its not hard"

Edit: Ok, i was too slow, that reply came in while i was typing 😅

 

First of all, like i said, i already dont do it. I am not that person who complains about Liches while having 200+ Liches killed. I dont like hunting collectables (as excessive as in this content), so i dont do it. And yes, the carrot aka Shards wont make me engage with this, i will rather get them from Archon Hunts then.

 

vor 42 Minuten schrieb trst:

It's just such a short and honestly inoffensive "grind" that I don't see any reason to rework it into something entirely different. If it was something that took hours a week or was structured like a regular Syndicate then there would be more of an issue.

Second, yes it might be short. But i cant follow this argument..."ok yes it might be bad, but its short, so its good".

 

vor 42 Minuten schrieb trst:

Plus there are players who enjoy the difference in pace as a break from the rest of the game.

Yup, and i am one of them. That was the first thing i said:

Zitat

Let me start with saying that i enjoyed TNW and Kahls section and that i was looking forward to this and some different gameplay. I also want to point out that i am not after efficiency in Warframe, so i have no problem with missions taking some time to do or missions just "feeling slower".

Playing as Kahl is already a lot slower than playing as a Warframe. And yes i like that change of pace. And like i said, some collectables are done well, like the Veilbreaking. But i am giving my point of view on what should be improved or changed and why i am already bored. And the fact that something is not hard or doesnt take long has zero impact of me feeling bored.

[sunderthefirmament]

6 minutes ago, trst said:

Except it is entirely optional since Kahl missions aren't the only source of Shards. You only "need" to run them long enough to clear out the shop and continue after that if you want Shards faster.

And you only need to repeat it for as long as you have a "need" to. Again you can already get Shards from Hunts and you don't even need to have Shards slotted onto every single frame since they're reusable.

That's a fair point.  But if you want them all, you'll be engaging with Kahl forever.

 

6 minutes ago, trst said:

Yes, alternate Stock sources would be the ideal alternative instead of reworking the Kahl missions themselves. Even if players get tired if it it should remain there as is as a break from regular gameplay. That would also be in line with how DE dealt with the other slow activities with Thumpers, Orb Vallis Containers, and Vaults/Obelisks dropping mining and fishing components.

That's a good point.  There's already precedent.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

1 hour ago, DreisterDino said:

I dont know why it is so difficult to change this (tbh i dont even think it is, probably just not a priority for them),

If you don't know why it's so difficult is it wise to get upset and make acquisitions about it?

You have to remember too that crossplay is here and this might need a coding fix which requires a cert build for consoles. So for crossplay to work it's possible that the code has to be the same for all platforms.

I find the missions to be enjoyable. I don't think these were meant to constantly be replayed, but a fun new thing to do once a week.

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

Face it, there's no variety. This content is going to fall off, hard. The same 3 missions, the same waste-of-time side objectives, the same dialogue that'll never be changed, and the same rewards. Talk about a waste of potential & a waste of time.

[TARINunit9]

Yeah I do think it was a mistake to just... have them as preset missions. Especially with one of them just being a copy-paste of the original quest. Yahtzee Croshaw said it best a few years back: there's a difference between doing missions in same-y environments, and doing missions in the same environment

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

Should've done random mission types with Kahl after you max him, ya know extermination, rescue, etc. 

[vanaukas]

the weekly archon shard is enough incentive for me to do a 15 min mission a week. I'm sure they'll come up with more mission in the future, for now I'm happy they are focusing their task force on Duviri paradox. Now if they don't add more missions... Well, that will suck a lot.

[MqToasty]

2 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

Am i alone with this?

Nope, I'm with you.  I skipped the re-run of Sneaky Sabotage this week because I found it to be the least bearable.  I'll probably do Junk Run next week to get Afentis and stop after that.  Honestly, a non-Tau Forged Archon Shard really isn't so good in my eyes that it's worth the weekly grind.

1 hour ago, sunderthefirmament said:

It was fine in a one-off quest.  It is very much not fine in an endless, once-per-week grind.

This.  This was my exact reaction after TNW, and I am not surprised the Kahl quests got old on us so quickly.

For those who enjoy it, I respect your preferences and suggest you play it!  Play it exclusively and obsessively so DE can see how much you love it!  I guarantee you DE checks the play data to see how popular each mode is, and if you want to see more Kahl-like missions in the future, then you really need to work hard to let them see how much you love it.

 

[EdinaMonsoon]

all they have to do is add an alternative method to gain Stock that involves actually playing as kahl as advertised and a lot of the negative feedback will go away

for those who completely despise kahl from head to toe, they're always gunna hate it no matter what DE adds to it and that's fine, we all have our own tastes

but right now, the burn out after one full cycle of these missions seems perfectly justified because these fetch quests are just... boring, sluggish and completely distracting from actually enjoying what the missions have the offer in the parts we find fun

[Lionsheart89]

I think they are fun enough, but they will only last as long as the rewards do. I can't picture myself doing them after I've gotten all the archon mods and Styanax's weapon.

[_Anise_]

12 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

1. no variety

I kinda was a bit aimless than I found a great mag build which I started playing for everything but ultimately got bored so I started branching out and landed on gloom protea and played that as much as I had previously played mag but again got bored, now I just play whatever frame, usually one of the tank frames for harder stuff but whatever I am feeling likeotherwise for variety on normal missions.

the Khal stuff, I dont mind having the guy around, he was kinda interesting to play as a "one off" story mission, I dislike playing him regularly and would rather just do his mission with a warframe with him tagging along, he is pretty dull and these 3 missions will be on rotation forever, like others said content island I won't go back to

 

[Hypernaut1]

This is the first side content that I genuinely don't like in Warframe.  It's annoying to "ignore" because of the shards. If it wasn't for that, I would've been fine with doing the 3 missions and dabbing in it every now and again, but the shards make me feel like I'm missing out. 

It doesn't even seem to make sense that shards are there, they just threw those rewards in.

Khal rewards shouldve been grineer cosmetics, things to upgrade his camp and the weapons.

IMO Kahl missions are the equivalent to fighter frame and happy Zephyr. Content that Shouldn't really be part of the main Warframe experience, but a cool side activity. 

 

[(XBOX)ONI LawIiet]

never had interest in the first place, in all my years of warframe that content is the only one I have straight up ignored / checked out on due to no interest. 

I play warframe to play my warframe thank you and use all the things I have grinded for years and spend hundreds / thousands of dollars on.

that's why attenuation sucks so bad, it invalidates all the effort we already invested with DE, we gave you our time effort and money ages ago, we continue to, and they just arbitrarily disregard the time and investment of the players

then why should I invest anything?