Nightwave + alerts removal feedback

[No1Eye]

According to what the devs have stated in the devstream concerning the nightwaves, it certainly feels like they are taking things to a better direction on that one, but still, i am not convinced by how much this will be any different, unless i see it up and running for myself first, plus, how a new player would feel for them and so forth.

so, let's wait for it to go live and then give the feedback.

i would certainly love to see the nightwaves be taken out and the old alerts to be returned, for many reasons i have stated as my feedback on this thread in the past, but let's wait and see how the episode 2 plays out.

how much pressure it will end up having, how less grindy it will end up being in comparison with the 1st episode and the old alerts as well (as they were).

how accessible will it be by new and newish players, how much enjoyable will it be and how much out-of-our-way gameplay will it be having for getting each tier's reward.

let's not forget that nightwaves are a replacement of the old alerts we used to know and access so easily and be rewarded so fast, so a comparison with the old alerts must be made as well, on each change they do on them, so to see the good and the bad.

i will certainly not like the change they are making to some of the acts stating with a friend or a clanmate to being acts with an alliance member, coz it is basically a similar thing, so, i feel like this is not a change to a better direction at all.

nightwave challenges should not have this restriction of running them with anyone at all.
those who want to do them solo, they will do them solo.
those who want to do them with friends, clanmates, alliance members and so forth, they will do them with those.
but forcing people to do them with others, otherwise you will not complete that specific act type of a deal, does not strike me as something being very good to have in there.
if we want to do them with others, we know the way, there is no need to be forcing us or leading us to do so.

 

Edited May 4, 2019 by No1Eye

[NihilistZealot]

As it stands, I do not enjoy Nightwave in the current iteration. I've posted some minor gripes earlier, but to be quite honest, they're one of many reasons that I felt pushed away from the game. There are many factors to this so there's no need to go into detail within this specific post about anything other than Nightwave itself.

 

My biggest issue is that, while I'm in favor of rewarding players' dedication, I do not appreciate being subjected to extended time sinks from the game. There are so many things vying for our already limited time and Warframe being another one of them is not rubbing me the right way. I know that the seasonal approach may seem like it's lenient or enough time to provide, but realistically, popping on and getting slapped with weekly Nightwave challenges when you've got a weekend (or maybe only a couple hours) to try and clear them before they are shuffled off and you have a brand new set of challenges to not complete is really disheartening. It's the same problem generated by the previous alert system, if you don't have the time, you're going to miss out. This time, the rewards seemed actually decent. Which is a shame, because at this point I'm not going to be able to get any of the rewards I'd like from this first go unless DE decides/figures out a way to allow for standing to be earned for previous events. 

 

I get that the goal is to continue, as live service models tend to do, to attempt to keep players engaged with the game by stoking the fear of missing out. I don't think that's a great way to create player engagement. Folks that are already dedicated to a live service game will continue to focus on that game primarily, even if they wander away for a while, they'll return so long as the game is able to maintain interest. Nightwave in the present state doesn't do that for me.

 

I'm fine creating a barrier for entry. I'm fine with creating a challenge to obtain gear. I'm not fine with arbitrary time limits imposed as a means to pressure players. This is exactly what we didn't want. We'll see how the second round goes, we've already got RNGsus to contend with, we don't need harsher forms of grind to compound this ever-present arbitrary limitation.

[Ecnemalas]

Hi everyone! I waited for the Devstream before I posted my opinion in case DE addressed the points I was going to make. They barely touched on the topic of Nightwave (and said nothing about Arbitrations), instead spending half of the time on cosmetics, so my opinion remained pretty much the same. I hope you find my feedback constructive.

A little background: I am a solo player (mostly due to both my Internet and PC being what they are) with 670h of play time and I got to the rank 30 in about 8 weeks. Please remember that I am speaking for myself and as much as I sympathize, I can’t fully enter a new player/hardcore veteran mindset. Here is what I think about the Season 1.

1. Daily/weekly missions:

Missions should be skill-based.

I am OK with Orb/Eidolon hunting tasks, even though I never killed one – it’s fine, I play solo/casual, can’t do them yet, I skipped those missions. I am not OK with missions with friends. I did the “5 sorties in 1 week” (skill) easily, but I couldn’t get the “1 sortie with a friend” (player independent) done. Some people are forced to solo for technical or personal reasons. I’ve seen posts on the Forum by people who physically lack coordination or have no social confidence, who play solo because of other’s criticism of their team play. It was the first time I was 100% locked out of content, and it did not feel good. Missions should be possible (not necessarily easy!) for everyone.

More is more.

Not the other way around. By introducing less missions, you will make people who can’t do them lose more standing per week. I get that it allows for faster catch-up system, but this is easily fixed by not making people do all the current tasks before you can catch up. Just make the old ones pop up in place of completed one by one. Also, if  there is stuff like Ayatans or Perfect Conservations every week, that some people find hard to complete, your version of catch-up may frustrate many players by forcing them to do these things. Some argue that you do these weekly tasks automatically, just by playing. Please remember that everyone likes to do something different. More missions every week with a weekly standing cap, rather than “you should be OK if you miss 35%”, would allow people to actually do what they like more often and reduce burnout.

Standing amounts need more variation or missions have to be better adjusted.

Killing 150 enemies does not equal deploying a glyph, and 1-hour survival does not equal five sorties in a week. Amounts need to be adjusted to difficulty of a task, and tasks have to be predetermined (more or less), to avoid past missions becoming worth much more or much less when you think back. Have the same amount of standing every week, but distribute it differently. Missions need to be ‘priced’ according to difficulty/time consumed/repeat numbers, and not in a rigid 1-3-5k way.

Missions are too repetitive.

I am not talking about “Complete 3 missions X”. I am talking about the same mission coming up every other week. Reducing 60 minute survival to 30 is pointless, difficulty was never an issue, as Nightwave is not new content (at least mission and mechanic-wise). Warframe is full of potential simple mission ideas, and I was very disappointed in the lack of variety. One of the ideas I had was to include riven unveiling-like missions. Not the “Headshot a Tusk Ballista while backflipping from a Dargyn five times in one day” kind, but there are so many I would rather do than three mobile defences, a.k.a. listen to Octavia’s 1&4 for 15 minutes. I have a more detailed idea for getting some standing the end of the post, please check it out and let me know what you think. The more variety, the more engaged your players will be.

Timer. Please give us a timer for Season 2. I get that this was a test run, but PLEASE give us a timeframe next time. Not knowing how many weeks you have left is one of the top reasons of burnout and fear of missing out.

2. The Wolf encounter.

Wolf encounter probability is bad.

The Wolf found me four times. Twice during week 4 or 5 (same day!), and twice this week. Once per 2,5 weeks on average, with me playing daily. My solution would be to make Wolf an optional miniboss. For example: you found Fugitives > you captured two > you get a message saying they deployed a distress beacon > you destroy the beacon (or get out of range) > continue mission OR you let it signal the Wolf and he arrives to help the Molotov Brothers. This accomplishes several things: higher spawn rate, no players complaining about being not geared, new players are able to ignore him. A player in a team destroying the beacon on their own may be an issue, but how is it worse than what we have now? I am sure you could find a workaround. Make the season’s Big Bad an opt-in encounter, not an RNG unicorn.

Wolf is dumb like a bag of sand.

Encounters 1 and 2: speedrunning Lith relic exterminations, Wolf spawns at level +/- 11. I am invisible (Loki). I empty a clip from 6-forma Amprex at point blank range in his face. Takes a full clip to kill him, but he does not even move. Even grunts in Warframe try to shoot at your last location if you are invisible and follow you if you use loud weapons. Thumpers and Dargyns have some kind of Orokin magic in them allowing to ignore your invisibility completely sometimes. Wolf just stands there and tanks. Encounter 3: leveling gear. Still the same blind Wolf (lv 38), with three irritating extras this time. Fighting with level 5 Pangolin Sword is obviously like sculpting marble with a feather, Amp does very little (2-2-2 gilded), I think I saw the health bar move after 15 shots or so. Decided to bail, Wolf does not follow, because blindness. Encounter 4: running Axi relics. Level 48 Wolf dead after 70 Catchmoon rounds (2 forma, no riven). Fight took 2-3 minutes, and consisted of me walking backwards in a circle while invisible, because this time he actually followed me. I let him attack me a little, and honestly it felt like the Molotov Brothers were out-damaging him. He has no interesting mechanics to him, he’s just a bullet sponge, which is not the same as difficulty! Make the Big Bad actually dangerous and unique!

Lack of rewards.

Wolf is known mostly for dropping Molten Impact (as he did twice for me), and that’s not OK. The fight is not rewarding at all considering how rare it is for most players. I get that he will be a permanent addition, but still. Why in the Clem’s name is he not dropping Wolf Creds? If I had a currency named after me, I’d never leave house without some. Make fighting the Big Bad actually worth our time!

3. Rewards.

Rank 1-30 rewards are pretty good.

I liked the variety with some mods, some cosmetics. I loved the Kuva. Not much to say here. I would consider reducing the ranks to maybe 25 to reduce burnout and focus a little on the prestige system, but that’s a large, event dynamic-changing step. I was happy with the rewards, but also happy to be done with them.

Prestige system is a joke.

After I saw it I stopped caring and am actually not sure if I ranked up more than once since rank 30. I stopped doing Nightwave missions altogether, at least consciously. I check the missions on Monday, laugh, and do what I want, not Nora. My solution would be obviously to increase the reward, but also to add some variety. As I recommended earlier to put a cap on weekly standing, I’d remove it for prestige. I think 50 Wolf Creds would be much better, maybe in a Wolf Creds – Kuva – Endo sequence and something fun every 10 ranks. Maybe all 3 or a small booster? Remember people hoping that prestige would give the same rewards as ranks 1-30? Yeah. There is no point in doing the prestige system right now.

Wolf Cred shop has no interesting items.

Fortunately for current prestige system, there is nothing worthwhile in the shop. If someone played for more than 2 months and did not get the helmets before Nightwave, they probably do not care. I get that auras are nice, and new players need Nitain. I bought the decoration and as many catalysts as I could just not to waste the Creds. I would love either more unique cosmetics, or some kind of a currency exchange. I would, for example like to purchase void traces, as I am always low on those. Shop is mostly for new players (Which is OK! They need this stuff!), but Wolf Creds are pretty useless, at least for me.

4. Lore.

Nora who?

Unless I missed something at the beginning, we just trust this person with pretty much no explanation. Her rants became a little repetitive after a while, but that doesn’t bother me much. I would love some physical introduction to the character. Like the Corpus raiding her radio station and us helping her relocate in a rescue-like mission. I feel no attachment to her.

Wolf’s motivation.

There are topics on the Forum already how his story is full of holes. Yes, we don’t know his full story (to quote Nora: “news to me too”), but why would he antagonize the Tenno? He is an escaped convict, and Tenno are people who in three days can destroy for example a Fomorian, that took months to build, while being extremely reluctant and complaining how easy it is all the time. Maybe it’s in Wisp’s lore, but I’d like an enemy with a plan.

5. “Bounty Hunting +” system

This is a draft of a proposal for Nightwave task, I’d love to see your feedback. It can be implemented as some capped standing per week or an alternative for catch-up system. The idea is to have few marked enemies every week and to get Season standing for killing some of them. Simply killing would not be very efficient though, unless you do it in a specific way. There would be a set of modifiers, looking for example like this (numbers of course to be discussed):

Task:     kill 50 Bombards (200 standing)

a) with a melee weapon (+100)

b) with a polearm (+100)

c) with cold damage (+100)

d) in a lv. 40+ mission (+100)

e) in one mission (+600)

Modifiers have to be fulfilled in sequence, so killing 50 bombards with a primary weapon in 1 go will yield you only basic standing. So you can get from 200 to 1200 standing per repeat, as this is meant to be repeatable, but capped. The better you are, the less repeats necessary, but also the basic standing will be earned passively as you play and kill these enemies. Let me know if this is worth discussing here or in a separate topic.

TL;DR: Playable, not 100% enjoyable. Needs a lot of work and will still never satisfy everyone. I think that overall it’s a large improvement over old alerts, at least for my caliber of a player. It left me hoping for upgrades rather than despairing over the flaws (of which there are many).

[D1sTrust]

3 hours ago, No1Eye said:

i would certainly love to see the nightwaves be taken out and the old alerts to be returned, for many reasons i have stated as my feedback on this thread in the past, but let's wait and see how the episode 2 plays out.

I strongly believe both could be merged into something better.

Purely in terms of actual ingame activities, I think NW`s daily/weekly challenges are the better system.
They have more variety (with a lot of headroom up from what NW1 offered) and work well for showing (new) players what`s on offer in the game.
If they would just pop up and give us direct rewards like the Alerts did, I would be quite happy with it.

I think it`s possible this is actually what DE are heading for, they are probably just (over-)selling the work-in-progress (of coding challenges) as "event".
However, the NW "event" in itself remains the most unpleasant experience I had on Warframe. I hope I can regain my love for the game once it`s all over.
 

[Kakoii-is-cool]

Quote

So at first pass, we are seeing some concerns rise to the top:

• Ayatan Challenges - too RNG dependent.
• Survival Challenges - too long in one sitting.
• Friend / Clan Challenges - "I have no friends/my friends don't play Warframe".  

For some of these Elite challenges, we were attempting to speak to the endurance runners, but it seems we may have missed the mark - if you liked it, or didn't like it, comment below. In the end, we wanted to make a series of challenges that spoke to every type of player, but we do not want to do so at the cost of enjoyment overall.

• Ayatan challenges dont feel like challenges once u got the 4 rooms implemented in your head
  would be nice if there were, elts say 30 minirooms in a pool, and every challange has 3-5 rooms that u need to complete, in a manner that theyre more friendly with directions? but harder than "i watched one youtube video, and now all of them are boring and i can do them with eyes closed"
  
   
• survival challenges are great, the longer they run the tougher the enemies and the faster life support drops,
  Cutting this in a half will make this "elite challenge" laughable..
  also it would be nice, if farm-orientated warframes like khora / nekros / hydroid wouldnt make enemies drop more lifesupport, because this way one or two of them become more or less mandatory for creating a team to take on the "challenge"
  
  cutting time in a half is fine, if you double the speed at which enemies gain levels and increasing life support drain, returning it to its original difficulty
  i enjoyed the kuva challenge last week, since it actually felt like its tough to some degree (unless ure super high end geared and choose op frames, such as saryn)
  note: i failed twice at it first... making it actually feel like a challenge, unlike afkfarming other elite missions (frost prime made 40 round defense a joke...)
  
   
• warframe is meant to be played multiplayer, all aspects of the game point towards that! (although i despise taxing and carrying newer people, because they get into an enviroment where theyre completely useless and also overwhelmed by the game itself, whic his neither good for random people they go with, nor is it beneficial for them growing as tennos
  also: giving solo players what they want means spoiling their unwillignes to socialise, which is a) bad for the game b) bad for their personal life
  look at it like this: urging people to play together because of game mechanics, improves the social skills of socially awkward ppl + as a company you are even helping them out with their personal problems (not being able to/ refusing to socialise is indubitably a symptom of a bigger problem)

and a personal one:
making nightwave challanges more accesible and feasible by combining them with other rewarding missions would be nice
for instance, i waited almsot half a week to find a nice defense fissure to farm rare ressource, do relics and complete 40 wave nightwave challange
i bet alot of people dont even try increasing their efficency with their nightwave mission by combining it with other missions and therefore complain how dull it is, but thats their own shortcoming, not DEs

Dont touch the wolf, he is not the problem, the players are the problem, that refuse to equip 1 out of 3-5 weapons to kill him
All that you have to do is include one weapon to kill him with, as i know we tennos are armed with a setup of multiple weapons, namely primary, secondary, melee and heavy gun later, some even have an exalted weapons so, if youre in a squad of 4 people... that means 16 weapons, if one of these weapons cant take on the wolf, then you and your squad dont deserve to be able to kill him, since it is your own fault for not taking one out of 16 weapons to kill this boss
stop blaming game mechanics for your own bad decision when u enter a mission!
"i want to farm MR effectively and dont have any guns that can kill him" eeeeeeeexactly u want to farm MR, u dont want to kill the boss if he appears, so either start equipping a decent weapon or stop these pathetic complains about yourself being too weak

[(XBOX)TheRealInta]

I like the concept of Nightwave but would have liked to keep the alerts mainly for just jumping in and playing with random people. Now I cant do this as I have to trawl through the planets and nodes just to find a squad to play with. It's very very frustrating

[NihilistZealot]

9 hours ago, Kakoii-is-cool said:

• warframe is meant to be played multiplayer, all aspects of the game point towards that! (although i despise taxing and carrying newer people, because they get into an enviroment where theyre completely useless and also overwhelmed by the game itself, whic his neither good for random people they go with, nor is it beneficial for them growing as tennos
  also: giving solo players what they want means spoiling their unwillignes to socialise, which is a) bad for the game b) bad for their personal life
  look at it like this: urging people to play together because of game mechanics, improves the social skills of socially awkward ppl + as a company you are even helping them out with their personal problems (not being able to/ refusing to socialise is indubitably a symptom of a bigger problem)

Waframe is entirely feasible solo. There's no content in the game currently that cannot be taken on solo. Raids were the only exception to this rule. There's zero reason to force people to play how they don't want to play. As for your assessment of people's choices for playing solo: don't come onto a game forum and preach that a company ham-fistedly implementing a system which excludes people's preferred playstyle is a good thing benefiting the players when the game itself does nothing in any other form to discourage this.

[wargthewarg]

So the friend challenges don't get any better and count for more standing? How is that an improvement for next season?

My alliance is less active than my clan. 

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

Just please get rid of Nora.  She is bearable for a season, but if she is the new face of a new system I have to interact with daily it sets up a system where annoyance from nora is balanced against the perceived rewards.  I already take long breaks from playing.  I don't need another reason to not play.

She is immersion breaking, nothing says space ninja like an 80's radio PI broadcast.  She would fit if we were on a one time investigative quest, but as a general quest giver Darvo is a million times better.

Even Clem just saying 'Clem' in different inflections would be better than Nora.

[Darth_Predator]

2 часа назад, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 сказал:

Even Clem just saying 'Clem' in different inflections would be better than Nora.

What do you mean "even"? Clem is the best!

They already made Nora shut up when I complete the act or probably tied that to some transmission option I have disabled (the only one being hint transmissions). That was a god sent change. So I hear her only when I decide to check on whatever is still not done and in cutscenes, she's ok when encountered this often.

But I wouldn't mind Darvo taking over as a host. Everyone needs 50% discounted life support!

[(NSW)Hatemachine]

I wouldnt mind so much, if there was a reason to care about this character, came from nothing, knows alot about the Tenno than some faceless twit should that hasnt had ANY interaction with any aspect of the games story or narritive until the start of Nightflush/wave.

But nope, nothing, so as this character came from nothing, she can stay there as silent as I can make her, I feel bad for the Voice over artist as she does an amazing job at recreating the same character from the Warriors & in the new war if shes used in the same fashion I would LOVE for it to work this way, sending information to various groups via underlying tone, metaphore & music so as to remain innocuous but vital as an information agent.

That was what made the Warriors character unique & fit, you could FEEL the alternate meaning to what was being said, the underlying truth, then to have the order given to track down & capture or kill the warriors, by playing the song nowhere to run, nowhere to hide.

All done above board & keeping the station & character clean of the actual conflict they were involved in.

So if they could flesh this character out & give us a character to give a crap about, thatd be Great, or gave a function that made her being there a nice benefit, custom sound tracks in game? collaboration with pandora? Or whatever music services would like to have another market?

She COULD be neat, as it is like the rest of NW she just showed up & threw the game for a loop for little to no actual gain save a few minor neat twists & a whole lot of head scratching WTF's?

[Marine027]

vor 16 Stunden schrieb (NSW)Hatemachine:

I wouldnt mind so much, if there was a reason to care about this character, came from nothing, knows alot about the Tenno than some faceless twit should that hasnt had ANY interaction with any aspect of the games story or narritive until the start of Nightflush/wave.

But nope, nothing, so as this character came from nothing, she can stay there as silent as I can make her, I feel bad for the Voice over artist as she does an amazing job at recreating the same character from the Warriors & in the new war if shes used in the same fashion I would LOVE for it to work this way, sending information to various groups via underlying tone, metaphore & music so as to remain innocuous but vital as an information agent.

That was what made the Warriors character unique & fit, you could FEEL the alternate meaning to what was being said, the underlying truth, then to have the order given to track down & capture or kill the warriors, by playing the song nowhere to run, nowhere to hide.

All done above board & keeping the station & character clean of the actual conflict they were involved in.

So if they could flesh this character out & give us a character to give a crap about, thatd be Great, or gave a function that made her being there a nice benefit, custom sound tracks in game? collaboration with pandora? Or whatever music services would like to have another market?

She COULD be neat, as it is like the rest of NW she just showed up & threw the game for a loop for little to no actual gain save a few minor neat twists & a whole lot of head scratching WTF's?

Can only agree, her Character is well done but feels out of place and not introduced or even cared about, i wouldn't mind if she would talk on the relays and people would talk about her atleast to acknowledge that she exists, i mean she seems to know way to much at times also and feels like a replacement for Lotus already so someone babysits us still and "rewards" us like the children we are if we "done good".

For me, the system is a nice idea but as always lately with some updates we simply lack lore and story for it, Wolf is kinda nice but feels also just latched on to have someone "menacing", i mean Assassins like the Stalker, G3 and Zanuka atleast have story, G3 in there Codex, same for Stalker and he was part of the main Quests, Zanuka you know partly that its a copy of the Original Zanuka that you destroyed already, etc. Bosses like Vor got proper introduction, Lotus talks about them who they are and what rank or so.

Maroo has more story to her then Nora has, i even dare to say that Clem has more personality and Story then her and the Wolf together.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Marine027

[Kefirno]

Nora's worse than Ordis and more immersion breaking than inbred emo kids.

"...with friends or clanmates" missions are stupid.

Introducing new time-limited rewards right after forcing players to take a long break after Profit Taker fiasco is a dirty move.

Removal of alerts is good. They were pointless clutter.

Removal of Vauban alerts is bad because now you can't play as a party of three Vaubans entirely covering a fourth pub that farms Vauban in electic balls.

Fugitives don't give enough standing for their meh spawn rate.

Invading "bosses" are only good when you encounter them for the first time. Adding another one doesn't contribute anything to the game.

The way story of "Wolf of Saturn 6" is told outside of missions is good, way better than quests. Quests are clunky and story with ingame cutscenes doesn't fit in Warframe's gameplay loop at all. Nora is crappy narrator tho.

Not being forced into one particular repetitive mission and its C rotation to get new stuff is good.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Kefirno

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

@[DE]Rebecca Any word as to why the Hildryn Alt Helmet is not listed on the Wolf Creds shop for Nightwave? At least on consoles a couple of friends of mine have been dutifully waiting for it to show up with no avail. And now that Series 1 is drawing to a close morale for it to show up is drawing low for my friends.

Can you please check to see if her alt helmet is actually a listed item and see if it can be patched in if it’s not?

[(XBOX)Kuljack]

I think a nice addition with the next nightwave would be for whenever the 'Wolf' Spawns in, that we receive some rep for defeating them.

I see a lot of players complain when he drops nothing, or a random mod we have hundreds of. I don't mind grinding for rare parts, but with the effort it can take players (especially when unprepared) I think a little rep for that season would be a nice balance.

Maybe 300-500.

[(XBOX)Kuljack]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

@[DE]Rebecca Any word as to why the Hildryn Alt Helmet is not listed on the Wolf Creds shop for Nightwave? At least on consoles a couple of friends of mine have been dutifully waiting for it to show up with no avail. And now that Series 1 is drawing to a close morale for it to show up is drawing low for my friends.

Can you please check to see if her alt helmet is actually a listed item and see if it can be patched in if it’s not?

It was confirmed it won't be until next season.

[random__noob]

You call THAT listening to the community? Are you deaf? Your solution is 5 challenges instead of 7?

Do you LIKE all this kind of feedback? Because when you impose a 10 week mindless grind scenario on people and you say "Good news  everyone, we listened to your feedback, next 10 weeks will be 20% less grind intense!" it makes me question your ability to comprehend 100 pages of feedback.

WE HAVE BEEN DOING THIS OBNOXIOUS STUFF FOR A WHILE NOW AND WE CERTAINLY DONT WANT TO SPEND HALF A YEAR WORRYING ABOUT NIGHTWAVE! 10 weeks was an abomination and you suggest "lets make this 20% less grindy?"

Making it HALF as grindy would have been too much. Do you not GET that???

Edited May 6, 2019 by random__noob

[TheGreenFellow]

10 minutes in a Rescue mission slowly chipping away with melee because guns won't have nearly enough ammunition and don't have a combo system to help deal with the insane hitpoint pool.

What did we get? 1 Spinning Needle stance mod.

This is bar none the worst boss experience I've ever had, and that's saying something in Warframe.

[gabuchan]

On 2019-05-07 at 4:38 AM, random__noob said:

You call THAT listening to the community? Are you deaf? Your solution is 5 challenges instead of 7?

Do you LIKE all this kind of feedback? Because when you impose a 10 week mindless grind scenario on people and you say "Good news  everyone, we listened to your feedback, next 10 weeks will be 20% less grind intense!" it makes me question your ability to comprehend 100 pages of feedback.

WE HAVE BEEN DOING THIS OBNOXIOUS STUFF FOR A WHILE NOW AND WE CERTAINLY DONT WANT TO SPEND HALF A YEAR WORRYING ABOUT NIGHTWAVE! 10 weeks was an abomination and you suggest "lets make this 20% less grindy?"

Making it HALF as grindy would have been too much. Do you not GET that???

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. We still haven't seen how they're going to change some of the missions themselves. The catch-up mechanic is going to be interesting to. I am going to remain optimistic.

[random__noob]

11 hours ago, gabuchan said:

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. We still haven't seen how they're going to change some of the missions themselves. The catch-up mechanic is going to be interesting to. I am going to remain optimistic.

I agree that optimism is a more healthy approach than my doomsaying. However looking at the devstream, I tried an empathy approach to each of their lines and it did feel like they are reluctant to reduce the time intensity of the event very much for now. They seem to test how far they can go. And that means it will always be borderline unbearable for some, too much for others, some wont mind either way and some welcome the task list given to them, so they have something to do. So that totals to four different cathegories of responses from the playerbase.

That means only one group of players has it rough: The ones that are BARELY feeling it is still too much. I counted myself as one of them, but I learned the harsh truth: There is a LOT more fun in pretty much any other game in my Steam library to be had that I have in Warframe. So I switch to the group of players that just say if THAT is what DE dedicates their development time towards, they cannot be creating REAL questlines or do proper balancing or create an endgame, not a gimmik like Arbitrations or Conclave. And if their design pool is so shallow that the only bossfight they can think of is the Wolf, then we are in deep trouble.

Warframe isnt an open Beta anymore. It is a well-functioning buisness. I dont demand anything. I can take it or leave it, but I feel that in a buisness that is aparently operating successfully, the product that is being released should be as successfull. Nobody actually FORCES DE to create any content, except for DE themselves. We whine when we dont get new toys quickly enough, yes, but we also whine when we do get the toys and we arent too happy with them. So we whine either way, best to just release stuff that makes sense somehow or somewhere. There is quite a bit of content by now. That existing content should be somewhat enough to give them enough space to really create a viable vision for the game. But do we see that? I feel like I am playing a patchwork system of halfhearted ideas and a solid background story and great style guide that is trying a bit too hard to have artistic dialogues (really people, we dont want to go to wikipedia after a questline to read up on what the FRICK actually happened in those missions. Make dialogue a bit clearer ffs... Some of the stuff only makes sense if you have been in your design meetings for the questline, not when you play it).

- Rivens were supposed to be our lategame motivation. Now DE realized we would just farm for 50k kuva at once and reroll any riven until we get the ideal result we were looking for, so OP riven users are EVERYWHERE. Which results in nerfs even for the average users.
- PoE is an Eidolon dispenser. Nobody ever goes to PoE unless they have to or they go Eidolon hunting.
- Arbitrations are trying a bit too hard to make sense. They kinda dont.
- Sorties make a bit more sense and should satisfy the need for reward for gameplay and also pose a challenge, but the only thing you can get from them that makes sense to get from is rivens. See first bullet point.
- I dont know how successful the Conclave is, but I personally wouldnt ever go there, not even if Nora asked me to.

Stuff has been bolted and glued and stuck to the game without much interaction or coherence, the style guide aside. So that is what we play. And that is what I choose to not play anymore.

Why do I write so much when I could just shut up and leave? Well, 2 reasons: One, I want to avoid people thinking "If you dont want to dedicate time this is not the game for you". I did dedicate time to this game. Quite a lot of it actually. And the second reason, insight. Occasional feedback bubbles will rise to DE, I am pretty sure of it. My specific words likely wont end up being referred to by anyone, but they might end up adding to the background sound: We know DE never thought they would be pushing the world they built this far, or would find themselves pressured to release ever fresh content. We accepted that for now. But DE: We came, and we stayed. We stayed longer than you may have expected. Now entertain us. You cannot expect the new player base to be willing to farm for everything that we did over several years. The new players can look at all that WF has to offer, all at once. All they see now is rank and bank for hundres of hours, all without a reasonable goal or without any change to be seen.

DE: Break the mould. Break up the formula. I would like something as weird as a fixed Elite Loadout. Imagine a loadout slot that you can fill with whatever you want, and only with a setup from an elite loadout slot you can play elite missions. But everytime you change anything in that setup, you have to face an entry trial first. Change a mod? Take a trial. Change a weapon? Take a trial. (Not one identical trial, of course... Your pick of stealth, damage dealing, defending, or what have you). That way our selected favourite loadout would grow on us, and missions and gameplay could be cathegorized into new players and experienced players. You would KNOW that in elite mode, you play your one favourite sidearm, your one favourite frame, your one favourite gun. No flipflopping. Balance your gear, be able to handle yourself and your role. Bosses and enemies wouldnt need to be balanced like they are now, for new players and veterans alike. Take and entry test or dont play that stuff. Mission rewards for something as mundane as an exterminate mission could actually be worth it, because they also would take you 20 minutes and you would try to use any positional advantage you could get. Weapon damage, enemy damage and enemy armor could be strictly changed for elite loadouts. Loot you get there could be stuff that is only beneficial to you when you actually DO play elite loadouts, so that players not playing that stuff wouldnt feel like they are missing out. Make it a quest to liberate a planet. Place a fomorian core into space and let it float, asking all tenno you can muster to push it into someones base, over 2 weeks, drop in drop out as you have time.

But we dont see anything in terms of vision or development. Nothing were we can grow upon Warframe anymore, and nothing were Warframe grows on us. The weapons we love and we grind Kuva for our rivens for are nerfed when it turns out they are in fact viable, and that logic is just flawed... You nerfed SUPRA rivens? All 10 Supra fans should be rewarded and feel clever for using that gun. And if it outperforms other guns, that is actually a GOOD thing. If you nerf more than one riven disposition, you nerfed weapons that have not been number one. How does that make sense? How can you nerf number 2 to number 10, and expect the player base to see the wisdom in that?

Last connection for me is I will still log in and keep the game updated. But I wont play, unless I see a reason to. Right now I dont think there could be anything in Nightwave series 2 that would be fun or entertaining enough to spend my time here More umbra forma, I dont care anymore. Cosmetics, not interested. Unique mods, no thank you.

Maybe something on Youtube will spark my interest, I dont know. But I feel like a veil is dropped, and I look at a Penta Mod that leaves fiery patches on the ground, and all I can think is:
"that could be handy when I farm the same useless Nightmare mission or Invasion or Bounty for the tenth time in a row, so that my mind sees something shiny and wont notice that none of this matters, or can be considered gameplay after repeat number 1000"

[(PSN)Limorkil]

I am looking at Nightwave from the perspective of someone who has not completed the star chart, who makes steady progress by playing maybe 10 hours a week, usually in 1 hour blocks.  

I mostly didn’t like Nightwave but my feelings are mixed. 

Good

- General concept and story. 

- Wolf model

- Daily challenges that give you 3 days to complete them

- Challenges not tied to any particular quest or mission 

- Rewards, notably Warframe/weapon slots, forma, kuva, potatoes - all the non wolf-credit items

Neutral

- Nora.  I found her kind of annoying, mostly because she makes the same comments over and over on fugitive capture.   

- Wolf credits and what you can buy with them.  Sorry, I am ALWAYS going to buy potatoes and Nitain.  The blueprints and helmets are really not on the same value scale.  

- Most challenges.  Yeah, they’re okay, but not great.  I would rather get challenges that are challenging but not grindy.  Sort of like riven challenges.  

Bad

For me, as someone who has tons to do in Warframe and in real life, I hated how Nightwave took up almost my entire play time each week.  I couldn’t complete the quests or star chart. I could only get faction standing when it matched a Nightwave challenge.  I hear a lot of experienced players say that Nightwave only took them a couple of hours each week.  Well it took me all week.  That seems the wrong way around if you ask me.  Those guys are looking for something extra to do.  I am not.  

- Grindy challenges.  When a challenge matched something I needed to do, it was great.  When it didn’t, it sucked.  The 60 minute ones and the friend/clan ones I didn’t even touch.  Many of the others just seemed a little too long.  I think the best idea I’ve seen people suggest is to make more challenges available and let people choose up to N of them each week. 

- Wolf fight.  I killed him once or twice but mostly his indestructible goons killed me. He ruined quite a few missions for me, which sucks when you can only play for an hour.  It forced me to play certain frames because otherwise I was dead, and forget trying to rank up weapons.  I rank things up as I play.  I don’t go to that node everyone goes to farm affinity.  I feel like Wolf punishes me for playing the game a non min-max way. 

- Time pressure.  The whole mechanic caused me stress.  All week I am wondering whether I will have time to get enough challenges.  I’m thinking about it at work, I’m thinking about it when doing stuff with the kids, I slept less because I stayed up late trying to make some progress.  This was by far the worst aspect of Nightwave.

Overall

Well the bad outweighed the good.  I didn’t dislike the concept or the awards, just the grind and the time component.  Simple things like having more than a week to do a weekly would help.  However, I would prefer no time pressure at all.  

I don’t want Nightwave to be easier.  Just less grindy and less intrusive.   Challenges should challenge ability not time commitment.   

[TheFBD]

22 minutes ago, (PS4)Limorkil said:

 I hear a lot of experienced players say that Nightwave only took them a couple of hours each week.  Well it took me all week.  That seems the wrong way around if you ask me.  Those guys are looking for something extra to do.  I am not.

You hit the bull's eye there. All those players who always scream for more endgame and tougher challenges don't have much else to do in warframe (hint: google extrinsic motivation). With nightwave they are happy because finally the game is telling them what to do again. But for everyone else, the nightwave challenges basically replace "normal" gameplay. And for those few who still claim the challenges basically "happen" during normal playtime: that may be true for "kill X enemies with Y" or "do X bulletjumps" or "complete 1 mission", but in the overall nightwave ranks that gets you nowhere.

[Ecclessia]

I have a suggestion.

How about devs would make Wolf (and other similar bosses) not competely invulnerable to statuses, but would just reduce chance to proc status on them like 10-20 times or something similar. Every time i met encounter with Wolf or other guys like him, i might have only status oriented weapons with me, which turns fight from just interesting fight into long and boring thing.

Even if status chance proc would be reduced from 100% to 5%, status guns and melee with Condition Overload would be at least somehow viable to use agains such enemies.

I understand, that just removing status immunity would just bring Wolf and others to be just another nearly oneshotted enemies, but, as they're untargetable by any frame abilities completely and Wolf could appear in almost any "usual" mission, status immunity not just reduces usefulness of status oriented weapons, but renders them almost completely useless. For example, i can have Boltor Prime, which currently has near 100% status on my build and is modded to corrosive (to remove armor, obviously). If i shoot at Wolf, i deal almost no damage, while crit guns deal much more damage compared to status guns. And if i would be able at least 2-3 procs of corrosive from 50-60 procs i would've procced on any other enemy, this boltor prime would be still weakier, but at least somehow comparable to crit weapons.

[(PSN)shanncz]

I recently hit rank 30 with Nightwave, fullfilling about 60% easier tasks. When I look backwards I don't feel satisfied at all, for me the best rewards were Nitain + Kuva. Armor is ugly, I don't know where to stick Umbral forma.

After finishing NW, I finally played my own tasks over last days: first Eidolon hunt, first Profit taker, finish finally all star chart nodes (Kuva fortress), last unfinished quest Glast gambit. And I enjoyed that freedom, just open startchart and do whatever I want in my casual way. I know now I won't be doing another Nightwave..  (I might if there are really cool rewards like Warframe skins, 100k Kuva, But I doubt they will be there.). And I hope there won't be another wolf+fugitives ruining my missions, excavators etc.

NOTE: Eidolon/Profit taker was part of tasks but I did't have time(standings) because I was finishing easier tasks.. Also I'm in small clan and I also didn't want to make fake-friends..

Edited May 10, 2019 by (PS4)shanncz

[BeardyKyle]

On 2019-03-04 at 6:13 PM, Sean said:

The problem isn't so much 60 minutes being spent within the survival, it's more with how small the reward is when compared to anything else for that amount of time.

Honestly though the whole system still needs streamlining, would be better just to let people earn Wolf Credits from the "Challenges" and remove Standing/Ranks and have everything buyable with Wolf Credits. A lot of the "Rank Rewards" are not really needed by all players, while it is nice to have Weapon Slots available without platinum, seeing them as an "upcoming reward" when having a ton of available slots is meaningless. Having Slots within the pool of items buyable with Wolf Credits would work well for everyone (though probably not at 50 WC).

This perfectly sums it up. Especially for players who have time constraints - work, family etc. Going through all the "rank rewards" that you don't need/want to get to the ones you actually do is only overshadowed by the fact that there is a seasonal time limit to do so. 

Just have a pool of resources you can purchase with Wolf credits with limited stocks - IE, 1 Umbral Forma, 2x 20,000 Kuva etc.

Treat Nightwave as an alert system and Nora as a vendor.

 

Edit: To be clear the Challenges are Not the problem. They are fun for the most part and let you do missions and gameplay you otherwise wouldn't. If there's a challenge you don't like or find too tedious atm, do another. 

Edited May 10, 2019 by BeardyKyle