Archwing Variety Fix (Itzal Nerf), K-Drive problems

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

23 hours ago, Lion said:

Scott has made it clear he wants to nerf Itzal because K-Drive sucks

That isn't what he said at all. 

The problem is that Itzal is so much better than anything else that it's the only way to get around, but DE want play variety. Or to put it another way: if there's just one meta then it gets boring.

I get his point, but the fact that my operator is also faster than k drive. Most frames can parkour faster than a k drive.

Which gets us to what Steve spoke about afterwards - originally the PoE was going to have multiple entry points, and some kind of fast travel could be an alternative.

Personally I'd make k drive travel faster (somewhere between fast frames and Naramon) and more valuable - maybe make k drive tricks grant affinity or something.

But also: open world missions have random locations, so there's just too much transit. A simple fix: the 1st mission in a bounty should be random, but every subsequent mission should be in an adjacent location - less than 300m away.

Oh, and take out the capture area mechanic, at least for quests. Just litter the world with quest givers so that you're never too far away from one.

 

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

if we could attack on k-drive, and it had its own hp and hitbox, i bet u more people would use it

like when u have to kill a set number of enemies

and also they should buff  archwings for combat in open worlds so that they arnt instantly shot down

Edited April 6, 2019 by (PS4)Spider_Enigma

[(XBOX)XGN DrFeelGood]

17 hours ago, (XB1)RPColten said:

This is entirely untrue. When the question was raised during the streams when K-Drive was being showcased, the answer was always "K-Drive is not intended to be a weapon/combat platform. You will not be able to attack from it."

That would be a better rework in comparison to Nerfing Archwings that go about 75 meters per a second. Warframe got a Hover board before Fornite; so there is something to consider out of the difference.

[DatDarkOne]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

and also they should buff  archwings for combat in open worlds so that they arnt instantly shot down

DE pretty much forced the use of Itzal when they added those homing anti-AW missiles to the game.  As Itzal and maybe Amesha (I'm not sure about this one) are the only AW that can ignore those at will.  

[Oreades]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Katsuro said:

Laughs in void dash

Chuckles in Wormhole. 

[taiiat]

8 hours ago, GinKenshin said:

Give us different ways of earning standing for the KDs, wats outside of OV

most definitely, Archwings and Hoverboards should be usable in normal Missions too - it doesn't matter that they'll be really cramped and usually bad to use, we'll adapt as Players and not use it when it's bad. but being able to use them when we want to, we should be able to! \o/

7 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Archwings are pretty strong, and the Amesha can make players outright invincible on the Plains between its support ability and keeping players out of melee/bombardment range. Giving us permanent Archwings would reduce "Warframe" variety in the Plains down to just the four Archwings and further down to just two, since players would likely use their Archwings over their own Warframes.

not really - the Ranges of those Abilities as it is, would only be good for defending a Health Based Objective, otherwise wouldn't really be very useful. and the DPS Archwings, can't DPS. they're just not gonna Kill anything other than Trash Units (because everything can Kill Trash Units, they have no Health, a half modded vanlla Braton can Kill them).
they're definitely not replacing Warframes, Warframe Abilities have better CC and better Damage, by far.
but sure, Amseha would be somewhat useful for small invulnerability and 'not Mesmer Skin'. mostly that one, tbh. you still only might see one per Squad, if that.

anyways whatever the reason for there to be more AA missiles than World War III, it certainly isn't a good one in the current state of things, yes.

[(NSW)Katsuro]

The solution 🙂

http://prntscr.com/n8g1ik

[(XBOX)RPColten]

1. K-Drives don't need a "rework". Everyone seems to be throwing that word around, without considering what it really entails. K-Drives, from a functional standpoint, do their intended job well enough and they don't break any necessary game-play elements.
2. Allowing the use of weapons on a K-Drive would either be extremely limited if implemented, making their use more of a hindrance than a benefit, or they would require a rework to the control scheme to replace free-styling tricks with attacks.

No amount of buffs to K-Drive will make them as or more appealing than Archwing. The Devs know this, we know this. You can't buff their speed outright without making them unusable (A slowly incrementally building speed-buff could work in theory though, as a mod.), you can't allow weapon usage without changing the face of how they work, and quite frankly you can't change the minds of the players who only care about function.

K-Drives are a choice based mostly on subjective value, and just going off general comments and player habits, it isn't very popular to choose things with personal value over functional value. Most players go for the optimal choice, and K-Drive is never optimal.

 

You can throw a bevy of buffs and updates to K-Drive, and short of making them another Archwing, players won't use them en mass. Give them the ability to stand on as a physical object, cool, no one is going to use that except for Captura shots. Give them weapon use. Cool. Archwings already do that, it isn't wonky to use, and they have their own abilities. Make them faster, no one will care because flying over a mountain is always faster than going around.

[Unimira]

31 minutes ago, Oreades said:

Chuckles in Wormhole. 

Don't give them any ideas or you could be next

*Flies away with Tail Wind*

[Methanoid]

14 hours ago, (NSW)Sk0rp1on said:

in Arch wing missions Itzal is more balanced because while it is the fastest, it doesn’t have many offensive capabilities.

Yeah i mean its only the fastest and has THE most cheesable aoe damage attack (with a CC mod to accompany it) that everyone on Neptune/Salacia uses to fast level their gear with.

The "nerf" isnt even a nerf, its just making it fall in line with other archwing so they all remain viable, as for "speed is needed in open world", well it still is, archwing are still faster than normal movement and kdrives, so their still king of speed even with the itzal moving normally like the rest, the itzal still has THE highest base speed (1.20) and can be modded with hyperion thrusters to still remain faster than the rest.

[Methanoid]

7 hours ago, X4vi0uR said:

I mean, Itzal is meant to be fast but having lighter shields and health. It's literally what that Archwing is supposed to do. Nerfing it would be like taking the speed buff away from Volt or the Stealth skills away from Loki and Ivara.

you are trying to make it sound like the itzal trades shields/hp for some form of magic dodging or evasion via that speed which it does not, its "1" is only used to cheese straight line movement, typically in open world, it doesnt use that ability to try and evade damage thsu saving its low shields/hp.

It also hasnt had its speed taken away, its still got the highest base speed of all archwing which is further enhanced with hyperion thrusters.

[(XBOX)GorgonKratos97]

How about instead of completely removing blink you give the ability to every archwing and give itzal a new ability like maybe a portal or switch teleport ability with a reasonable cool down or something similar. 

My god this topic has brought out a crap load of toxic people on both sides that refuse to acknowledge any reasonable criticism or concerns. 

[KingGladiator88]

Remember when Carrier was the only sentinel worth using because of Vacuum? Why was that again? Oh right, because of all the utility the other sentinels brought, vacuum was the only one really worthwhile.

 

Did DE nerf Carrier to the dirt, say make vacuum only work for +1 extra meters? No. They made vacuum universal for all sentinels.

 

Remember when sentinels were the only companions worth using? Because gathering loot in a looter shooter was more valuable than the other buffs the kavats and kubrows brought?

 

Did DE nerf sentinels to the dirt, say make all sentinels have a max of 1 HP and 1 shield to encourage other companions being brought? No, they added fetch to the game.

 

Nerfing an item instead of addressing the problem why said item is dominant isn't the solution.

[Astewart42]

3 hours ago, peterc3 said:

There is if it totally eclipses every other choice. I dare you to try and envision using a K-Drive at the same speed as the already fastest Archwing, with Blink added on top. For me, this sounds like an uncontrollable mess.

Are your examples exactly the same as Warframe or is there some element that might make the two games, and how they are designed, as different as apples and oranges?

Is titanfall exactly the same as Warframe? IS Anthem exactly the same as Warframe? Is knowledge and learning of game controls and systems transferable between titles?

Is flying in descent 3D completely different from flying in Warframe or are there similarities to a 6 degrees of freedom style system of movement? Are there things that developers and players can take away from titles which came before and already did something similar ?  Can a player draw examples from games they played before to make recommendations for Warframe or are we like “ we don’t want to hear about destiny “ BioWare ?

 

How many rhetorical questions can we ask in a single post? 

 

I did give examples of ways the k drive could be made more viable and a better choice for some players. 

Edited April 6, 2019 by Astewart42

[WarriorSoundwave]

Maybe if DE hadn't nerfed K-drives twice I would think about using them a little more. DE it's your fault that K-drives suck as much as they do so please don't take it out on archwings. It's like getting a new baby sibling and now the baby sibling gets more attention than you do and things need to be fair(archwings vs. k-drives) making us wish we never had that baby sibling because it takes away from archwings. I know it's a weird analogy but if K-drives were never added at all then archwings (or just itzal) wouldn't get nerfed to the ground.

[BlizzardMamba]

1. I don't think I really understood the issue with Itzal. What is the difference to top tier frames and weapons that are the 'best' way to play.

2. My thoughts which might be a little jumbled bc. I just got home from a party:

Itzal is objectively the best at what it does and because WF isn't pvp it doesn't hurt anyone.

You are motivated to go out and experience the poe on a K-Drive? Do it! Nobody is stopping you. If DE wants choice they should make content for neglected stuff, nothing can be perfectly balanced for everything and there will always be the best thing. Amesha is  powerful but nobody cares. If there are parts of your game nobody plays maybe see what can be done to improve it instead of changing the elements people actually play.

If DE wants to force their players into a specific style of play they will lose. Maybe they should ask themselves why people like fast cars in games, or fast spaceships, or Itzal.. maybe because flying over the open worlds is boring? unfun? look at your second monitor time? Here is an idea, make the flying actually exciting, rewarding and dangerous!

They should learn from their players telling them how they like to play their game (not using K-Drives, mostly using Itzal) and use it to make their game better for their players. Instead they try to force people to play the way they 'envisioned'. Trying to make your players fit your game instead of the other way around is not a good idea imho. Nobody will like K-Drives more because Itzal is worse.

You cannot fight human nature and people will always try to get to the rewards faster/easier esp. if they have to repeatedly do the same thing. Players feel a "sense of pride and accomplishment" after they have overcome a challenge and putting them on a timer both figuratively and literally isn't a way to make something challenging. Nobody grades movies on their running time. Who can blame people trying to shorten the mission they are running 100+ times?

Exploiter was interesting bc. gear didn't matter much. But is that healty for warframe on a bigger scale? Just use whatever, it doesn't matter?

[(XBOX)Tornicade]

4 hours ago, peterc3 said:

If the only use for Archwings is using Blink on Itzal, that is not really using Archwings, it's a time skip. That's it. DE has to do something to change that.

Air to air combat... I see and do this all the time on battles, especially on protect segments.... I dont even have itzal and i use archwing all the time....they gonna nerf odanota too?sure ill whip out thd e kdrive if i want some resources on the way but slowing down itzal isnt gonna make k drive meta so y slow it down

Edited April 6, 2019 by (XB1)Tornicade

[Svenarx]

Currently, dev don t developp really great contents... They prefer to nerf usefull items, warframe, so players will be forced to play slowly with all basic stuffs... And waste More Time on this game.

Here, it should be better to improve : K drive and other archwings... But it s more easy to nerf... 

Currently, i see and i saw too many nerfs... 

 

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

The thing is people would still use the Itzal anyway because it has the best boost speed so nerfing it by removing  blink would accomplish nothing. does no one who develops these games think ahead on these things like the players do or am I imagining things? Also unless K drives became so fast they were borderline uncontrollable but still faster then Archwings they would still see no use. Why you ask...because they can not fly over the massive mountains that exist in the Orb Vallis and would still go unused. The only way they will force K drives on people is if they get rid of the Archwing launcher all together as even the slower Archwings are more desirable then even a max speed K drive and anyone with a brain would know this...

[Svenarx]

K Drive should fly like archwing with same or better high speed !

Less, it s like to come back on a slow motion nerfed warframe game.

Edited April 6, 2019 by Svenarx

[Lohitukipuhelin]

I think the boost speed of all archwings should be what itzal blinks at and the normal flight speed should be what itzal boosts at, that way people would actually use more different kinds of archwings. Add to that that that you would ragdoll if you hit things, which would promote safe speeds when flying next to structures as well as being hilarious.

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

On 2019-04-05 at 5:42 PM, Aejan said:

They aren't changing Iztal to make K-Drives more appealing, they're changing it to allow for player choice. If you want to get around an open world area, the Iztal is the best choice by a huge margin. If you join a game and you aren't using the Iztal, you get left in the dust. Their intention isn't to slow down open world travel, it's to allow people to pick whatever they want to pick and not be overshadowed by a clearly optimal choice. People shouldn't have to invest all the resources building the Iztal if they don't actually like how it looks or how it fights. 

They aren't going to remove the teleport and leave no compensation. The Iztal will likely get another ability that is just as good or better than the teleport, just one that doesn't make it so that you need to fly the Iztal to play the game "properly". 

The thing is the choice will still be nonexistent unless they nerf the Itzal's speed down to the next slowest fastest Archwing as well. Because guess what...the Itzal stil has the fastest speed and people will still be unable to compete with it's speed anyway. Also the utility of Blink will be gone for normal Archwing missions then as well and it being the fast and sneaky Archwing are out the window. You need to think about this more in depth my dude...

[(XBOX)Skiller115]

DE just make it so we can use weapons and maybe ablities on K-Drives. I would definitely use them then.

Nerfing Itzal is logically akin to a doctor amputating your leg when you just have a paper cut on your finger, because your leg was too healthy! Yeah that removed leg would help that little paper cut out so much!

[Leyers_of_facade]

Just allow us to shoot while on kdrives. This way, while we will still use archwing for traveling between a place to another, players might choose kdrive when they are staying around an area (for bounty / toroid farming) instead of just normal parkour because it is more fun. (Archwing isn't a good choice when the goal is to stay around an area due to all the anti-air weapons from the grineer and corpus.

[nslay]

On 2019-04-05 at 5:33 PM, Swagernator22663 said:

As someone already said "We going to nerf itzal, so that the k-drive can suck less".

It's a misdirected idea. They just need to make an open world where k-drives shine... maybe Gas City will have poisonous sky that will kill you if you fly. Or a sky full of debris? Or perhaps they could make a Cephalon open world (the Weave) that is completely flat with few obstacles deadly sky or sky with debris?