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[DE]Connor

Arbitrations Revisited Part 2

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 I can't see myself using any of the new aura mods or arcanes however, I don't like any of them and collecting ten arcanes just from arbitration seems like a pain even with more frequent rewards. Drones dropping Vitus essence is something I can get behind. Double the cost for everything in the Arbies store seems excessive even with more Vitus earned

Edited by (XB1)thelightbeckons
Mis read part of post about endo for some reason
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Those mods/arcanes... (hard pass in general, but more specifically) in rotation with endo and sculptures?

not safe for work GIF

Edited by PSherman
Forgot word
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I like it. I have some concerns about the loot table being diluted, and the longer time to C rotations. I liked how arbitrations had only a very slight increase into drop chance on C so if you just wanted to run a short time you could easily do it and still get stuff. Perhaps put some of the new things on a small drop percent but also put them in the store for a large amount of vitus?

 

My other concern is the same one that has existed since the start of Arbitrations. Arbitration drones RUIN the fun of random WF/weapon bonus modifier. Certain warframes are just flat out useless because they rely on CC or killing abilities to protect themselves that Arbitration drones ignore. Which means you're stuck ignoring the modifier and running a limited pool of WFs. Same for weapons, since they are small, difficult to hit and often bodyblocked by immune mobs, you're stuck using certain aoe weapons to clear them.

I'd really like to see whatever WF/weapon is currently getting the random 300% bonus being able to damage drone protected enemies. It'd make for a lot more fun and actually cause the modifier to see some play.

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6 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

It’s been awhile since we updated you on the state of Arbitrations back in April. Listening to feedback from those changes, one recurring theme was that the mode doesn’t feel rewarding enough (unless you’re playing a certain mission type, that is...) - so we dug into the numbers to see why that may be, and what could be done to improve the game mode overall. . . .

Overall, these sound like great improvements.  

But I have to say I'm not just not that interested as long as the resurrection mechanic in arbys is unchanged.  If you said you were making these changes and naming some  improvements you wanted to make in resurrects I'd be really intrugued. Put these changes on the old no res arbitrations and I'd be genuinely excited.

As it is, I'll give it a shot, but my hopes aren't that high.

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1 hour ago, Kingdom_key599 said:

A 75%  reduction to the endo in arbitrartions might not be a good idea tbh.... SO with that said if we do some math, then we can calculate that 75%=0.75, so if we go with the 1,300 endo from Rotation A currently, and divide that by 0.75 we get a strange number of 1,733.3333333... but  for the sake of time we'll just use 1,733 instead.

if we then go 1,733 - 1,300 we get what we would be essentially getting in Rotation A  after the update of  433 endo per rotation A, leading to 866 endo for both rotation A's...

for a quick summery of the other two rotations here's what the endo would probably look like after words.

for rotation B, 1,600/0.75= 2,133 -1600 = 533, and for rotation C, 2000/0.75 = 2,666 - 2000 = 666 endo for the remaining endo...

this effectively makes getting endo not worth it in arbitrations in my honest opinions, as i like doing the Interceptions for quick and easy endo every rotation, Excavations are also nice but to me interception is more fun to play overall

if anyone wishes to expand on this math by all means go ahead. 

 

75% of 1300 isn't 1733 tho

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im going to ask the obvious using  Bloodletter (-HP on kill for self / +HP on kill for Allies) on saryn or volt or any other nuke frame will instakill them? or there will be a minimum of hp like for example 2 de hp as limit?

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Some things are interesting, some others are really not.

The aura mods sound bad. Ofc we will see when they land in game but... when was the last time we got an actually useful aura mod? CP is kinda mandatory for most of the end game content. Steel Charge is the other option used by melee hitters or people that need the 18 points for Umbra builds (why do we even have some aura mods that provide 18 points and some 14 i wonder), and Energy Siphon is the last one, but being used mostly by newer players. Growing Power is OK, and Power Donation has a niche (Speedva mostly). We have many bad auras, do we need more to diluite reward pools?

That aside, Arbitrations are supposed to be the Warframe end game content. Yet everyone is allowed to enter and there is a revive system, which wasn't in the original version of the mode but was implemented later because people that are not ready to play this game mode can play it anyway and DIE, and we get the burden to revive them, even if we don't want to, since we don't get to chose to leave them down or revive them. You (should) be good to play Arbi. You (should) use your top gear&guns. (should) you fail you (should) go. Why can't this game have anything "hard"? Why do everything in Warframe need to be able to be played by unprepared players? 

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21 minutes ago, (XB1)thelightbeckons said:

I don't agree with the percentage of endo reduction I think 50% of normal endo rewards in arbitration is more reasonable. I can't see myself using any of the new aura mods or arcanes however, I don't like any of them and collecting ten arcanes just from arbitration seems like a pain even with more frequent rewards. Drones dropping Vitus essence is something I can get behind. Double the cost for everything in the Arbies store seems excessive even with more Vitus earned

isn't 75% from what it is now (100%) a reduction of 25%?

3 minutes ago, enemystand said:

im going to ask the obvious using  Bloodletter (-HP on kill for self / +HP on kill for Allies) on saryn or volt or any other nuke frame will instakill them? or there will be a minimum of hp like for example 2 de hp as limit?

... Please, let it be instakill...

 

Edit: Please, let it be the only aura forcibly equipped on nuke frames in SO/ESO

Edited by Uhkretor
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Just put all these new items in the arbi shop. Please don't dilute the loot pool further with more useless items. I have so many of those grass ephemeras I can build a house out of them.Such a useless drop after the first one and you want to multiply the useless drops? no thank you.It already feels like a punishment getting the seeding step,I wouldnt even bother with arbis anymore if you put all these other items useless beyond a single drop into the rotations.  Please just put the new gear in the arbi shop.

After you get even 1 of each of these auras,anymore after that point is just a waste of time and a drop that could have been something you can actually use. 

What's the point of making drones drop essence if you arent even putting a bunch of new items in the shop anyways? we were already able to buy the very few items that are in there pretty efficiently. 

I expect terrible rewards from most other game modes. A 300th molten impact,a 300th whatever else mod put there as filler to waste peoples time. But I really hoped due to arbis increasing difficulty and required teamwork to be efficient that it'd reward that accordingly. NOT with useless mods.  Seeding step dropping all the time,wasting a drop,is already bad enough.

Perma death,difficult enemies that rapidly increase in level,enemies that make hordes immune to warframe abilities so you can't easily mow through them,hour long waits between new arbis,penalties to entire teams when a player dies because the arbi coins nerf the hell out of anyone who accidently touches them when fighting.    Why make such a different and much more difficult gametype suffer with terrible rewards? I want to enjoy what I get,not dread what's going to drop next. Will it be my 50th aura mod or something everyone can actually use like a sculpture or endo? who knows!

Edited by wizardeiges
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Wait wait wait, so you wanted to bring all arbitrations up to the standard set by Excavation... but nerfed the gain on the only resource we'd farm from there by 75%? So, now, instead of spending around 3-4 min to get 1.5-2k endo, we're spending the same amount of time for 2 chances of a drop worth only 25% of what it used to give?

Absolutely brilliant. Please tell whoever thought that was a good idea to slap themselves until they realise just how stupid this change is.

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Obviously you ARE NOT listening to the community. You endo was fine in here but remove that along with ayatan from the sortie so we might get better rewards over there. As for the rest of the rewards, they are useless after you get once so what it worth repeatedly playing this game mode? Then you increase the vitus essence but also increase the cost when spending so again pointless. The community wants rewards we can use over and over again.

Suggest: 12hr boosters in the drop table. Kuva (but waaaaay more), (50% off Tennogen bundles), Arcane helmets, Arcanes in general stuff like that. Quit scrimping on the dang kuva already, why?. If I wanna spend 15hrs playing a dull mission repeatedly then i want a GOOD reward for it. Boosters and such I mentioned are things we would come back for if we needed so a way to keep us invested in doing it from time to time. But crap that we would only need once or never use (stupid mods you suggest) is pointless. You are loosing your community left n right please start thinking of us more. We love this game but if you want us to grind for stuff it needs to be worth putting in the effort. Please run some stats already. How many players are around MR25-27. We don't need the same thing that NEW players need and this harder content is SUPPOSED to be for us end gamers who have already gotten and maxed all the items to keep us interested in playing while you work on NEW content.

 

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Double drop chance on Vitus, but increase shop price equally.. Thanks but no thanks.

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Some of the new auras and arcanes seem fine, but please add them to the store instead of the drop table. Mods are only a useful drop once, endo is valuable no matter how many times you get it.

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Just please remove revives and make it so that when a player dies it counts as an extraction, that way no one has to wait or go AFK on their teammates using frames that specialize in not dyeing such as Wukong or Nidus, everyone keeps their earned rewards.  Getting single-naded out of no where seems to be what happens most, we all know some frames cant handle even one of those at higher levels.  Just comes a point when Murphy's Law says "You're done."

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Any chance you could take a look at Polishing the Revive mechanic as well as how it looks? It feels like it was an afterthought that was slapped together using already existing assets and mechanics.

 

Currently, the revive mechanic is a huge burden on the players who arent dead. Mainly because once you pick up a revive droplet, you cant get rid of it and are stuck with a debuff until the player is revived.

The Main reason this is such a big problem, is because the spawn rates of drones Drastically decreases as the mission goes on. Around the 30 minute mark there is a very noticeable drop in drones spawning, and at about 60 minutes in, you'll barely see 1 of them every 15-30 minutes. 

This makes the debuffs just... the worst to have to deal with since you cant get rid of them, then you cant find enough drones to even revive anyone to be able to get rid of them. 

It's two big problems that work together to make an even worse problem. So please... take a look at it. Make reviving people a smoother and less detrimental process for those who are working hard enough to stay alive. 

Maybe make the pickups something we actually have to interact with in order to pick it up. Though if you do this, don't let it stop the flow of the battle just to stop and play the pickup animation. It should be an instant interaction, but one that you actually Choose to make. 

 

As for the endo rate changes, I'll wait and see how they play out. I'm not thrilled about the drop to 75%, but I think that is mainly because the reward pool is going to be diluted even more with the new arcanes and auras. Making that 75% probably have an even greater dip in how much you are going to be getting compared to the old system. But again, thatll require testing to see how effected it is. Im looking forward to more changes possibly on the way-

 

Anyways, cheers! I'm glad you're looking into Arbi's... they really do need the attention. So please take your time on not just fixing the reward pools and the mission times, but also at polishing the gamemode itself? 

Edited by Sickle_Slayer

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Rewards rewards...  What about the gameplay part?    The biggest issue is there is no choice, neither mission type nor faction and you have to wait hours for anything you'd like to play. Very discouraging.  Please add some choice. Higher difficulty choice too.

The missions are snoozfests, survival spawns are a joke on some maps we had nothing to kill even sitting all together in the same room and of course the life support runs out quicker forcing you out - because there are no spawns!  The game fails to offer anything even comparable to t4 survivals of the distant past (before shadowcheese and other powercreep trivialized everything and then relics killed off endless entirely)

 

Edited by Monolake
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6 hours ago, xXMadneXDXx said:

75% less endo? That can't be right. I understand that you want to make an equilibrium... but with a 75% less endo ,considering the ocassional 2000 endo , we would get like 500 endo and that's not worth the effort to be honest, at least for me. If I were to play Arbitration even with the long rotations It was for the endo which runs pretty fast when you like the Riven meta thing (7k ish) or just minmaxing your builds with a prime mod (40k ish). I agree with the endo reduction but not like this... 75% is a high downgrade I feel like a 50% is totally fair. This is just my opinion, please consider It DE.

it won't be 500 endo
keep in mind thier english is a bit off, it translates to 1500 endo, which means you will get more than the normal endo you would get

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45 minutes ago, Eklectus said:

Wait wait wait, so you wanted to bring all arbitrations up to the standard set by Excavation... but nerfed the gain on the only resource we'd farm from there by 75%? So, now, instead of spending around 3-4 min to get 1.5-2k endo, we're spending the same amount of time for 2 chances of a drop worth only 25% of what it used to give?

Absolutely brilliant. Please tell whoever thought that was a good idea to slap themselves until they realise just how stupid this change is.

 

1 hour ago, (XB1)thelightbeckons said:

I don't agree with the percentage of endo reduction I think 50% of normal endo rewards in arbitration is more reasonable. I can't see myself using any of the new aura mods or arcanes however, I don't like any of them and collecting ten arcanes just from arbitration seems like a pain even with more frequent rewards. Drones dropping Vitus essence is something I can get behind. Double the cost for everything in the Arbies store seems excessive even with more Vitus earned

They reduced the endo gain by 25%. A reduction TO 75%, means taking 25% off of 100%. They are not reducing endo gain BY 75%. They really should reword that line because it seems to be causing a lot of confusion.

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Edit to throw in some positivity with my negative rant:  The arbitration changes other than the new auras look solid.  All the people thinking that rewards are being reduced BY 75% instead of reduced TO 75% of current (25% drop from current.  1500 endo on rot C instead of 2000) need to learn to read and or do math.  The changes to rotations, minor drop in endo amounts, and store changes are all a sweet deal with the current proposal.  Literally all of it looks like a step in the right direction other than the auras.

All of the aura mods other than Verticality (and then only if it works on hildryn and titania's 4) look completely useless.  There's only a handful of decent, worthwhile auras in the game as is and these new ones are almost guaranteed to end up in the pile with the rest of the ones no one uses.  Loyal Herd?  Seriously?  For what summoner frame?  There is ONE frame that has more than one companion at any time and Khora's 2 potential companions is not a herd.  Even if you call it that, the aura will NEVER be worth it, even if it's huge numbers, because pet AI is so bad that they're only effective for a fraction of any given mission.  It wouldn't even be worth it to run it for the party's sake because pets represent such a small part of your loadout.  

You've got auras with actual negatives on them.  The armor scaling and energy economy are already negative enough in this game that the two most popular auras are ones that address those things directly.  Not to mention that you already have a "nightmare" themed aura with a negative on it with Empowered Blades, which only helps charge attacks and drains shields when you use them.  No one uses it.  I've literally never seen it run in any squad.  There's a reason for that.

You shouldn't be adding more useless, poorly thought out mods to the drop tables, you should be fixing the literally hundreds of completely useless mods that exist already.

Go ahead, do one of your data sheets on mod use in the communities and see that there's a tiny fraction of the mods actually being used consistently by players.  Fix the ones that have zero place in even non-meta loadouts.  Give us actual options rather than "fun" downgrades that will only ever see use in meme builds, if they ever get used at all.

Can we get a "developers actually listen to what their community has been begging for over the course of years" added to the arbitration drop tables?

Edited by (XB1)TehChubbyDugan
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The aura mods are really niche, some much moreso than others, and several of them are particularly appealing when more than one person has them. As such, I worry about the suggestion to relegate the auras to the store because it might make it harder to ask party members to stack a certain niche aura if so few would bother to buy it, let alone upgrade it. Perhaps the concerns about diluting the loot table could be addressed by having the mods rewards be bundles of 2 to 4 different auras, or by having them drop from arbitration drones?

Edited by Lint

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Please reconsider the design behind some of the arcanes and auras. There are a few that are so very useless.

Please consider using the interior Orb Vallis maps and their respective Corpus version in Arbitrations. This is great content that is currently wasted, as people aren't farming toroids any longer.

Otherwise, great work.

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You guys should make clear what you are doing instead of telling us "Endo rewards will be reduced to roughly 75%" because now people are guessing 2 things is either you guys are reducing the drop chance for endo or you are reducing the amount of endo from the drop table, so from 1300 endo is 325 endo or from 36.5 drop chance now is 9.12%

For real tell us exactly what you want to do and show us some example like this

Spoiler

1300 Endo - 16.5%
Ayatan Ayr Sculpture - 18%
Ayatan Sah Sculpture - 18%
Ayatan Valana Sculpture -18%
Adaptation - 2%
Rolling Guard - 2%
Sharpshooter - 2%
Vigorous Swap -2%
Aura Forma Blueprint - 0.5%
3x Vitus Essence - 1%
Verticality - 2%
Wicked Strikes - 2%
Loyal Herd - 2%
Bloodletter - 2%
Bladed Restraint - 2%
Rifle Kill - 2%
Melee Kill - 2%
Pistol Headshot - 2%
Six Melee Kills - 2%
Heavy Weapon Summon - 2%

 

Good that we have Kuva now, but you didn't tell us the price and the amount...will it cost 20 / 30 Vitus ... the amount will be 10k like in Nightwave? nobody knows...

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Okay, this is a better move. New mods, new arcanes and some of them even sound useful. I hoped for some more cosmetic content, especially for operators but it is what it is. Thank you! 🤗

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