Serious discussion: MR30 will result in the biggest backlash DE have seen no matter what they do [Very long read warning]

[Jarriaga]

I initially made this post in a different thread but responses got me thinking that this needs a dedicated discussion.

--Preface--

Assuming DE's late 2020 goes into full gear like in previous years, we are most definitively hitting MR30 this year. Let's make count:

- Current MR needed for MR30 (Non-founder): 126,499

- Hard mode: 27,051

- 3 Prime frames and their weapons (2 per frame) left for this year: 36,000

- Broken frame with just 1 weapon assumed: 9,000

- The next frame after broken frame, assumed with 1 weapon (Because DE won't let the year pass with just 2 new frames [Protea & Broken]): 9,000

- Command Intrinsics: 15,000

- Late 2020 main expansion. On average for the past 4 years, that means at least 40,000 mastery on the conservative side.

Total amount of mastery to be introduced this year: 136,051. Even if we take Command out of the picture, the remaining amount (121,051) is so close that even 2 new weapons outside the ones expected with new frames will fill that out. And founders won't need those 2 extra weapons since they already have Skana, Lato and Excalibur Prime. 

So I think the conversation about what will happen at MR30 is a valid one.

--The Ultimate "Mystery" revealed--

This is discussion would have felt premature years ago, but not now. We are almost there. So what lies behind MR30? What is the thing many players have been working towards? That build-up and anticipation is what pushed me and many others towards farming all the mastery we can. The legendary MR30 mystery. The pinnacle. The summit. The ultimate goal as there is no such thing as MR31. 

Once the first person hits MR30 (Likely a founder), there will be no more mystery at that point. Players will know for sure from the get-go if the grind is worth it. And this in turn places DE in a rather uncomfortable position with a tough choice to make. 

--DE are stuck between a rock and hard place--

So let's imagine that you just passed the MR30 mastery rank test and all you get is an exclusive glyph or profile badge. That's it. Nothing more than that, which makes reaching MR30 100% optional with nothing lost for choosing not to pursue that path beyond the QoL benefits.

If a badge/trophy is what happens, it will be such an underwhelming and disappointing build-up towards MR30 over 7 years that it will most likely result in the biggest backlash DE have ever seen.

So now let's imagine there's something big and gameplay-related perk, game mode, feature or option that is unlocked at MR30. Let's imagine you get double the physical mod slots (And capacity), and/or the ability to build your Warframe from a modular system for the visual design while taking abilities from other frames based on the parts used to build it: The main WF BP for the passive, and the systems from a WF with the ability you want to add per slot. Or just imagine if you got the ability to permanently fuse Augments to frame abilities without taking mod slots. Whatever you can imagine, make it something that affects gameplay.

If a gameplay-altering reward is what happens, many people who don't want to feel like grinding mastery is mandatory will get angry. They will now be forced to engaged with systems they had no interest in because of what they will be losing otherwise because prior to this point they had a reason to say mastery past MR16 was pointless. Thus, this will most likely result in the biggest backlash DE have ever seen.

Either way DE lose. So what are they to do? I don't see a middle ground solution between those two camps: Either MR30 is worth the grind, or it is not.

--Impossible expectations--

Yes, you can argue that it's players setting themselves up for disappointment and that having such a build-up for years and years sets expectations and standards that are impossible for DE to meet, but just a badge or a trophy will only serve to kill any motivation to pursue a higher MR rank beyond QoL for mostly everyone else. Again: Once the first person hits MR30 there will be no more mystery at that point. Players will know for sure from the get-go if the grind is worth it. New players and those who stopped at MR16 despite thousands of hours of playtime in particular.

And we can already measure the tensions based on what you'd personally like to se. I am on the camp of "MR30 must give a really good reward that makes you feel like the grind is worth it". For example, I'd like for a modular frame system that lets me build a frame with the abilities I want from other frames, double mod slots and capacity and augment binding to be locked behind MR30. @SenorClipClop not only highlighted that this would may only please me and not others who are in the same camp, and furthermore it would disappoint him by virtue of making it feel like he is being punished for not following that path:

2 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

Let's be honest, though, is there literally anything DE could do, any feature or content they could give, that wouldn't make a ton of players insanely sad/angry/disappointed? This has been hyped for as long as the game has been alive.I don't think anything would even be generally satisfying to the playerbase. Youtubers would start popping off with buzzwords like "controversy", rip-off", "cop-out" and "betrayal of the fans" within hours. (I get that this would be largely motivated by using shock value and clickbait to push views, but still.)

Your suggestions are perfectly valid for your own perception of the game, but if the thing they put behind that MR 30 wall were exactly what you said above, I'd personally be really disappointed. I'm powerful enough and I don't need baked-in augments or double Mod slots making the game even easier for me. A customizable frame sounds neat, but I prefer frames with synergistic abilities and so cobbling abilities from other frames together sounds like a gimmick I'd play around with here and there but largely forget about.

And if we pare it down to the most baseline of scales: if the pot of gold at the end of this rainbow isn't crazy amazing, many people will feel like they've wasted their time*. However, if the pot of gold is crazy amazing, many people will feel punished* for not grinding through the exp of every single weapon in the game. And that scale is not linear across the playerbase. One particular reward would be satisfying for one player, but too little for another player and too much (ie "that punishes me") for yet another player.

_{*whether or not the reaction is justified is another discussion, this is just how people are going to react}

Which is a reasonable response that only goes to further highlight not only the problem of impossible expectations, but the problem of a situation with no apparent middle ground between players considering this is what he (And likely many others on the same camp as him) would like to in MR30:

2 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

Personally, I would be happiest with a simple, standard "ending". Maybe a quick cutscene, some eye-opening but still inconclusive bit of lore dating back to the game's foundational lore, and then credits roll. Afterward pop us back into the Orbiter with a unique badge of honor (sigil, emblem or unique glyph border, maybe), perhaps a couple extra dialogue options for NPCs moving forward. That's it. Nothing giving me more power so that I'd feel getting to 30 was some mandatory grind. Something that affects just me, that says, "Hey, thanks for playing the f*ck out this game, here are the people who made Warframe happen." It wouldn't give me any kind of shinies or goodies. To me, that'd be the most genuine way for the devs to deliver MR30.

And I agree with most of his post. Particularly with regards to impossible expectations and content creator reactions, but the last paragraph is precisely what I described as what would be extremely disappointing for a number of players (Myself included) by virtue of being amplified by hours of grind and engagement.

--DE's impossible choice--

Once they add start designing the MR30 ranking test because the content amount is getting there, DE will have to make a choice with regards to which camp to please.

If a badge, trophy or glyph is revealed to be what lies behind MR30 then I would have saved myself from grinding 56 Liches, all K-Drives, all Railack intrinsics, and any new weapon release that didn't fit into my playstyle once I reached MR16 had I known earlier that It would not be worth the grind. And everyone will know too.

At the same time, if they do lock a valuable gameplay-related reward behind MR30, those who don't want to feel pressured to farm mastery, those who don't like Railjack instrinsic farming, those who don't want to invest 80 Forma so you can get all the mastery from all 16 Lich weapons, all those who don't want to play hard mode will be the ones who will feel let down by DE. 

So I guess DE will have to choose which group to cater to and please with MR30. The people who don't want to feel like mastery grind is mandatory by locking something big behind it are as equally important as players who want for the hundreds of hours and resources and dedication compensated and for the reward to feel like something worth grinding for for those who stopped grinding mastery.

There is no middle ground there. Or at least I can't even imagine what a middle ground would look like between "Make 7 years worth of content worth the grind" and "Don't make 7 worth of content grind feel mandatory".

I would not want to be on DE's shows when it happens. MR30 will represent a celebration. The realization of the game staying strong to the point the "highest" possible tier they could imagine so many years far away was now true. It will be a milestone.... That will be tarnished by backlash no matter what they do.

What do you guys think and why? Where do you stand? Let's help DE a little here by trying to tackle the topic with respect since I myself don't see how a compromise can be reached beyond just adding MR31 and completely killing the idea of MR30 representing any form of milestone or goal to reach.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

You’re really making a big deal out of nothing. MR 30 will just be like any other MR; a slight change to the mastery symbol, along with the usual increase to void trace and mod capacity, along with higher standing limit.

You make it out to be that MR 30 is some enormous milestone when it’s just not. Notable perhaps, but not this huge “I better get something extra special or I riot”

[Yuri_Doujinshi]

Did they ever promise something special for MR 30? I can't remember them doing so. Personally, I chase higher mastery rank so that I have a higher number next to my name, and I get more base level cap/more standing cap. MR 30 will be worth it to me just because I effectively have max rank mod capacity all the time. If people were chasing MR 30 expecting some sort of reward, then they are the only ones to blame for their unnecessarily high expectations.

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

Uh... What? It's like hitting max level in a game that's it. And with recent rank 40 weapons I wouldn't be surprised if MR 40 became a thing

[HansLuft778]

I don't know where the "mastery 30 is max"-thing comes from, is if form a statement from DE? 

But here is my bet: MAYBE Mastery 30 is max, then there will be some prestige like ranks or so. We will get 1k more standing limit, 100 more void trace limit, ... u know, the usual stuff. I never ranked my mastery for the hope of getting something special later. Just to fill the profile and make myself feel satisfied. 

[LupoDWolf]

TL;DR
i want to complain to DR abou somehing that was never meant to be that meaningfull without any base for it

[rawr1254]

Well if it's a glyph like youre assuming, yes it'll be kinda a letdown but also at the same time expected of a typical game developer(ie. Destiny)

The 2nd assumption of grind to change gameplay and all isn't that literally any game? Play till endgame and youll have gear or have game modes that newbies dont?

[Genitive]

Just now, Yuri_Doujinshi said:

Did they ever promise something special for MR 30?

They didn't, this is such a non-issue I don't even know why the OP bothered to write all these things.

[Nezha_Rose]

We accepted that MR is pointless, even if used as a flex, after mr 25 or so. 

 

 

So yeah. As an MR 29 I expect nothing on the other side. 

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

Paracesis and Kuva weapons go up tp 40, why not MR?

[MollAgdeduba]

Since now i've thinked that mastery 30 will not give me nothing particular or special than other mastery do...

but now that you make me think about that, could be very interesting if they make something special for the moment the palyer reach the MR30... i hope they'll do something 

[Jarriaga]

13 minutes ago, LupoDWolf said:

TL;DR
i want to complain to DR abou somehing that was never meant to be that meaningfull without any base for it

Out of all the replies saying I'm thinking too much into it because DE have not made promises or comments about MR30, yours is the only one that angers me. How do you take it from that post that "I want to complain" when I end the post by making peace with the possibility of MR30 meaning nothing at all by virtue of DE simply adding MR31 and killing any form of milestone-related expectation?

[kyori]

I know you are very hype about Hard Mode... but DE hasn't announce anything about MR30 or whatever is related, all these are just speculations. There is really nothing to be serious about speculations other than some fanboys giggles.

[Luciole77]

If DE does this to those with mastery 30 it will open a huge chasm in the community and people who are not will feel very pressured to reach that level.

[taiiat]

it'll be as meaningless as most of the things Players acquire in the game. i wouldn't expect anything else but that.
a number to collect, alongside all of the other numbers to collect.

[(PSN)Elvenbane]

MR30 will come with the greatest reward imaginable...freedom from being obsessed with MR.

[-Vahagn-]

Honestly I just expect nothing on reaching MR30.

[Drachnyn]

Giant backlash from like 4 people? Sounds like a storm in a teacup tbh.

[(PSN)Kakurine2]

After mr 19 i stopped caring if i get more mr ranks so be it but not going to go out of my way.

After mr 19 its just fluff.

[Jarriaga]

23 minutes ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

You’re really making a big deal out of nothing. MR 30 will just be like any other MR; a slight change to the mastery symbol, along with the usual increase to void trace and mod capacity, along with higher standing limit.

You make it out to be that MR 30 is some enormous milestone when it’s just not. Notable perhaps, but not this huge “I better get something extra special or I riot”

 

19 minutes ago, Genitive said:

They didn't, this is such a non-issue I don't even know why the OP bothered to write all these things.

 

5 minutes ago, (PS4)Elvenbane said:

MR30 will come with the greatest reward imaginable...freedom from being obsessed with MR.

Would have loved to know that  a long time ago. Would have saved me 80 (16x5) Forma from Kuva weapons and Railjack intrinsic farming.

[Tiltskillet]

You bring up some good things to think about, but...

"MR30 will result in the biggest backlash DE have seen . . . "

No chance of that at all.

[TastyTaro]

25 минут назад, Jarriaga сказал:

So what lies behind MR30?

Nothing. It will be the very same game as it was for 7 years. MR race is a choice players make. There is no reason to chase it, benefits are few and their value is questionable.

 

27 минут назад, Jarriaga сказал:

If a badge/trophy is what happens, it will be such an underwhelming and disappointing build-up towards MR30 over 7 years that it will most likely result in the biggest backlash DE have ever seen.

Why? just tell what will change at mr30? Congratulations you beat the game! Shhh game, i beat you 19 mrs ago.

 

28 минут назад, Jarriaga сказал:

So now let's imagine there's something big and gameplay-related perk, game mode, feature or option that is unlocked at MR30.

*sigh* imagine is the key word here, making a content exclusively for mr30 is dumb, because game has nothing to offer to a mr4 player.

 

31 минуту назад, Jarriaga сказал:

 then I would have saved myself from grinding

You do that. Understand this, as soon as player can complete all the things game has to offer and that happens at mr4 for a starchart and mr6 for Eidolons, all you do next is your choice. It is an artificial goal you set for yourself. Nothing more. mkay? Because this game is a grind. There is no other purpose but to grind stuff, and to do that or not is your personal choice.

And guess what? If you get a medal for all that, well, be glad. Because it can very well be a Primed Flame Repellent.

[Varpulis]

I expect to get the same thing from MR30 that I got from MR29... basically nothing.

 

If the other mastery ranks had no significance, why do you expect something special from MR30?

[Kaotyke]

28 minutes ago, Genitive said:

They didn't, this is such a non-issue I don't even know why the OP bothered to write all these things.

But they did.

Spoiler

In the player's heads. Which is all that is needed.

 

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

Doesn't seem that hard imho to please your Veterans , just do, ideally, all of the following:

• Custom really cool emblem.
• Custom really cool profile icon.
• Custom Really cool sigil with a cool full body effect like bloodshot sigil.
• Custom Really cool ephemera.
• Custom Really cool operator set.
• Custom Really Cool warframe Armor Set.
• Custom Really Cool Syandana.
• Custom Really Cool Ship Decoration.
• A unique Landing Craft or landing craft Skin.
• Could always add a sugatra while you're at it...
• Kavat / Kubrow armors maybe?
• Maybe you could even release a new exclusive weapon , like a custom modeled Nikana with similar stats to existing wpns, but a whole unique look to show off to non MR30 peasants... A symbol kinda like Excalibur Prime / Skana Prime and Lato Prime.
• Make the door at the end of the MR test corridor open up into a custom MR30 only lounge with murals that display the usernames of every MR 30 players on the platform, that way MR30 elitists can go gloat with other nolifers like myself !!!
• Maybe do some form of prestige ranks afterwards so MR nuts have other milestones to acquire once they hit the max, but keep displaying the MR30 as the main Status Symbol, since people don't want to be new mastery level 1, they want to be mastery rank 30.

So yeah , basically just making a whole set of exclusive gear to look cool would be enough for most players to feel like it was worth it, since people love showing off. But it has to look really sweet, not some lasy upside down tennocon armor reskin or other bad looking reskin, otherwise people will feel like then spent seven years to get something that took DE five days to make. Make it count , give us a social space and most people will be happy showing off their cool exclusive armors to all noobs and inspire envy...

But if you really, really , REALLY want to reward your vets, make formas no longer require you to re level your weapons once you hit MR30. At this point any vet has spent more than enough time on hydron leveling crap up, just allowing them to use formas immediately without relevling would be a godsend, and it would in turn make DE drown in cash, since tons of vets would litterally buy a gazillion formas an forma the hell out of their whole arsenal if there wasn't the annoying chore of releving the same weapon seven times to fit a build.