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Csikszentmihalyi's Flow


SeidronDaer

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First of all, I'd like to apologize for yet another complaining post of the state of WF. In my defense, I'd say this - If I didn't care about the game, I would have simply move on to another, giving up on WF.

I saw this post on reddit and I thought I'll share this with the community. When I first started playing WF, the game required mid-tier skill level and offered high-ish challenge level (esp. with unpotated Excal/Rhino with mk1-braton modded with rank-0 Flawed Serration). "Arousal" was an apt description of what made me spend another 4 thousand hours playing this game, albeit the last 1k hours I've been rather apathetic.

Now the current state of the game - low skill, low challenge. You need only 3 frames (maybe 4, Xaku, if you hunt for syndicate medallions) for normal starchart missions - Khora for cc (press 4, afk), Gauss for elimination (press 3, dash with 1, repeat), Wukong for everything else (press 1, afk). As a Wukong main, I thought for today's Sortie, I'll try Protea for a change (Naamah, Raptor assassination). I was one-third the way to the objective when the Wukong pug reached the boss area. I was half-way to the objective area when the Wukong completed the assassination. Nothing for me to do but to head towards extract; at least I had a headstart on the Wukong and I'll reach the extract first. Wrong! The Wukong hit 2 and reached extract first. For elimination missions, if when I land in a mission (e.g., void fissure with a pug) with a Gauss or two, there's nothing for me to do but to head to extract - the Gauss runs faster than anyone, kills everything in its path with 1 key press. Sometimes it kills so fast that the mobs don't have time to turn corrupted and the squad extracts without the requisite 10 reactants.

Power creep is real and has gotten out-of-hand. Single-key press and invulnerable frames (shield gating + brief respite) make for bad gameplays.

https://www.reddit.com/r/coolguides/comments/o0pj5w/found_in_a_v_sauce_video_called_why_do_we_get/

 

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Maybe if you'd post this in Feedback you'd actually achieve something with this thread, because there's nothing to discuss here.

Wukong bad, power creep is real, "I know more about game development than the actual developers mimimi".

If you want dark souls level of challenge go play frickin dark souls. This game never was about difficulty, no matter how hard you try to deny it.

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While I am not really sure Csikszentmihalyi's model best describes why people play Warframe -- I think Quantic Lab's Gamer Motivation Profile research is more apt -- I agree that a few frames, like Wukong, are a bit too OP.  He's simply got too much in his kit -- tankiness, mobility, free specter.  I do think he is a godsend for lower level solo players, but Warframe's variety would probably be better served if he was nerfed a bit for either multiplayer, or higher-level content.  That said, having been a Wukong main for the longest time, I have since found it more fun to play other frames -- Wisp, Mirage, Octavia and Mesa are all great and excel in mission types that Wukong may not be the best suited for (like Defense).

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I fail to understand why you are complaining about not having to fight the Sortie boss.  If it's because you want to fight challenging enemies, you could go solo or do either Arbitrations or the Steel Path.

I also fail to understand why the chart has Arousal on it.  No matter how much I play Warframe, I am 92% certain I have never been aroused by it.

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Melee was underperforming - DE improved it and now it scales with enemy level well, now it's decided that it's "too strong" and people agree on the nerf of it forgetting DE wanted and advertized it as a viable tool for gameplay.
People complained about game being hard to get into for a new player, DE make it more accessible and now it's a bad thing.
This community...

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I disagree with the Flow chart on a fundamental level. My engagement with games is not determined by challenge level and skill level. Other things drive me and impact my enjoyment of a game.

Your scenarios would not make me mad or unsatisfied with the game. I'm delighted when the objective is completed before I reach a boss, for instance, because it means I have competent party members, rather than lifeless rocks that just sit at the start and wait for me to do everything. (not that that matters to me either, because I came to complete the mission anyway.)

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3 minutes ago, (XBOX)TyeGoo said:

Quite honestly, I'd really love to see some data if people do this for every game. 

Well they did it for broodwar (and it still have tournaments, live ladder games etc 20+ years later), for sc2 (still has tournaments, ladder games, custom games etc 10+ years later) 
I saw this for couple of other games too so I presume it's the case when the game is no longer on the world "spotlight".

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3 hours ago, SeidronDaer said:

When I first started playing WF, the game required mid-tier skill level and offered high-ish challenge level (esp. with unpotated Excal/Rhino with mk1-braton modded with rank-0 Flawed Serration). 

You can still get high challenge right now by playing unpotated Excal/Rhino with mk1-braton modded with rank-0 Flawed Serration.

 

Also.. quit playing on warframe reddit. just like youtube, it mess with people's opinion towards the game. play actual warframe instead.

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3 hours ago, SeidronDaer said:

If I didn't care about the game, I would have simply move on to another, giving up on WF.

So where does "care" fit into the graph? The reason for caring is fascinating too.

Why is it we all reach apathy and continue playing?

Is that DE's fault or ours?

It's like people wanna scream "ENTERTAIN ME!!!!" at DE and they'd be well within their rights to reply "Errrrr, we have done, haven't we?" and depending on the hours on you profile you'd probably have to agree.

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20 minutes ago, (PSN)drpunk-yo said:

It's like people wanna scream "ENTERTAIN ME!!!!" at DE and they'd be well within their rights to reply "Errrrr, we have done, haven't we?" and depending on the hours on you profile you'd probably have to agree.

along the emergence of story driven games that are mostly qte and very little skill cap, the legendary shigeru miyamoto once lament that people nowadays treat videogames like theme parks. "I've paid the entrance fee. Now I'll just sit here, entertain me!"

Because that's what most people do nowadays, they press few buttons, watch lara or nathan jump through exploding structures, then see the ending and never touch the game again.

The reliance on developer delivered contents are alarming. Because it's much faster to eat through contents than to make them.

I'm a huge fan of football. It's amazing how football games are always the same, yet we can keep playing it over and over and over again. I'm also an avid monster hunter player, where we keep hunting the same monsters over and over and over again.

Is core warframe that boring, people just keep needing new contents? Or probably the game is not for you, mate... maybe you had a good run, and now it's time to graduate from warframe, move on to your next game on the next phase of your life.

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18 minutes ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

Why is there only skill and challenge level

It's because Csikszentmihalyi's work is mostly focused on people with autotelic personalities -- those who are primarily intrinsically motivated, and what rewards them the most.  While I am sure some play Warframe for intrinsic motivations, I would hazard to say most of this game's player base is at least party extrinsically motivated.  That's why we grind for the shinies and do not just play whatever game mode we enjoy for the sake of playing that game mode.  Btw, sweet username...  :)

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putting aside the fact it'll take my dumb a$$ an hour to pronounce that long-a$$ name..

it sounds like OP got annoyed at a Wukong Speedrunner and instead of not worrying about it, decided to go full big-brain with charts and stuff. and a good dose of Venting of course.

power creep is not going anywhere any time soon, and frankly I don't think there are that many people left who still honestly look for a challenge in warframe anymore: the majority of people craving something that tests their skill will have moved on to other games, and the majority of people left are people who, on some level, enjoy the power fantasy; or at least enjoy it enough to not abandon the game, despite the grind and various other flaws. you're either with the power fantasy or you're not, and if you're not, then I don't see how you can really find that much enjoyment in Warframe. 

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Dumping a graph without much explanation I don't think necessarily conveys the OP's idea as clearly as it could, but otherwise I very much agree with the point being made: Csikszentmihalyi lists several factors conducive to flow, i.e. the ideal state of enjoyment of an activity, and while there are several more that are germane to Warframe's design and its issues (intrinsic reward is another big factor), balance between challenge and skill, and maintaining both at a high level, are a crucial factor that the game does terribly: not only does the game routinely fail to challenge us, it typically rewards our achievements by making the game easier, leading to a completely backwards difficulty curve where the game is at its most difficult when just starting to play, and at its easiest when one has the most experience with it (and accumulated power). As a result, the game has difficulty bringing in new players and retaining them for long, and equally struggles to keep veterans engaged.

With this in mind, I also very much agree with the OP that power creep is the main reason why this problem exists: I also experienced states approaching flow when I got going earlier in my time with Warframe, because at that point my power was matched to the difficulty of the content I was going through. However, soon missions started becoming increasingly easy once I unlocked better weapons, mods, arcanes, and so on, to the point where now I have found running certain high-level missions entirely on autopilot while focusing all my conscious thought on something else entirely. It's impossible for Warframe to reasonably challenge us when we are equipped with the tools to effortlessly win against any situation, whether it be through overwhelming damage, invulnerability, crowd control that can be deployed without risk or real limit, and so on. For the game to become more enjoyable, the first step should therefore be to change our power and how we use it, so that we are rewarded for skill, rather than for merely owning powerful items. Telling people to deliberately underpower themselves to experience challenge is as idiotic as it is disingenuous, given that this is a game that pushes us to seek out more power, and where players in multiplayer expect each other to carry their weight.

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1 hour ago, (XBOX)InductiveBag46 said:

The problem it the fact that right now wf is playable in your sleep and not everyone likes the vegetable levels of difficulty

The fact that he mentioned gauss for extermination also kinda suggested that this is a rant about normal starchart. I mean, that boy ain't killin sh*t in sp.

59 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Mods have ranks for a reason. 

Don't want power? Stop using fully ranked range mods, arcanes and the like.

Exactly what I've said in my 2 posts just above: people come into warframe thinking it's a triple-A game where contents can be taken for granted: use everything on your disposal, and demand harder contents when you finished everything with that.

It was never. People are chosing their own activities in warframe, and make their own challenges. That's why we have ikeaframe, fashionframe, and operator runs or no mod runs.

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