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Heart of Deimos: New Syndicates & Economy Feedback Megathread


SilverBones
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Please add the Necramech mods to the Necraloid Syndicate wares.

As it is I am still lacking half of the mods, yet I have almost two weeks of standing worth of Orokin Matrices. Going by other forum posts I am still in the low numbers, so anyone that doesn't quit from the repetitiveness generates ridiculous amounts of standing as a mere byproduct.

Perhaps I am dipping into armchair dev territory here, but since I am assuming there's going to be a content update for that syndicate down the line making the mods available from Loid would both prevent player burnout and the standing economy for this syndicate.

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After having unlocked all mutagen and antigen blueprints, it was finally time to start making my first infested pets... except that I feelt immediately demotivated by how their health type is tied to their looks. Whereas for MOAs, the difference between different components is between health shield and armor, 5% more of this but 5% less of this, the health classes for infested pets have all have massive vulnerabilities against certain damage types. As long as you tie cosmetics to stats for these pets, the stat difference should be as minor as it is for MOAs.

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So I see time spent out on Cambion Drift does not contribute to any of the other syndicates. So that must mean that Glass fissures shouldn't spawn there too right... right? Nightwave is like another kind of syndicate. And it's not Entrati or Loid.... so, for the sake of consistency, those Glass fissures don't belong in Cambion Drift since we don't accrue standing for any of the other syndicates there.

OK, mild joke aside. Glass fissures disrupt bounties. That isn't to say that they're annoying and needlessly damage defense objectives (they are and they do), but they cause delays or cause bounties in Cambion Drift to be stuck. For example, I got back from an Isolation Bounty (all completed) where Mother wouldn't talk to me because another bounty was in progress. Gee, a glass fissure just started happening... so I wonder why that could be? I finished the Iso Vault, Nora announced a Glass fissure, and Mother wouldn't talk to me because another bounty is in progress. Coincidence?

Well, maybe DE wants to slow us down with these glass fissures in Cambion Drift. Maybe these glass fissure bugs are a "feature"? Yeah? OK... Glass fissures help players beat Necramechs easier because the Necramechs can't kill glassed enemies. We can't be having the players finish farming Necramechs too fast right?

No, really. Please. For standing accrual consistency, for bounty bugs, for bounty advantages... remove glass fissures from this open world.

Or alternatively, allow us to accrue standing for the other syndicates. We spend a lot of time on Cambion Drift and we are awarded with measly tokens and no standing for any of the other 6 syndicates. Then at least glass fissures will only contribute to bounty bugs and bounty blessings.

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Grandmother token and consequently resources she offer is way overpriced.

Currently the only good trades she's offering for her token are mother's and father's tokens. The rest 3 kinds of token cost way more effort and their resources (minerals, fish parts and tags) have many more useful functions than to trade for some token that worth hundred or so standing.

And it looks like Entradi standing hardly do anything after you max out. Pets cost Son Token instead of standing. Decorations cost resources. I think the only you can do with them are buying baits.

Edited by Marvelous_A
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The son tokens are really a step back towards progression, now that i've started floof hunting, and gathering resources to make the new companions, to gild them requires you to spend 5k to gild + 10 son tokens which are another equivalent of 5k syndicate points. This is double the amount of resources dedicated only towards a single pet. If you noticed fortunas and poe gilding systems you just need to waste 5k points normally to gild anything.

The tokens from son have been increased in syndicate value BUT they are still tied to floofs + grandmother tokens AND gilding. So the amount of syndicate points and son tokens you need to waste is obnoxious. Either take the son tokens out of gilding pets, or heaven forbid reduce the amount of tokens necessary, or increase their syndicate points value again to balance this out or you could also use tags or resources.

Don't forget the maximum amount you can get of each token is limited due to a time gate ( most people don't have time to play more than 1-2 hours per day), and i've only manage to get around 14-18 per time gate just like the familial bonds (but in this case familial bonds have way more syndicate point weight and are easy to get from bounties as well). Also understanding that needing to farm non stop resources from vaults+ bounties and open world nodes also occupy a huge amount of time from people and grind away at your will to keep doing the same thing over and over again, this all just feels a huge unnecessary grind for almost no rewards. 

This could be easily fixed by adding standing to bounties on top of tokens ( to balance it out reduce the amount of tokens you'd win), so people if they chose to only do bounties for standing could progress as well but slowly. Or adding other types of tokens to bounties, you could have bounties with each family member and they would reward you with tokens respectively. Example, fish 10 fishes without missing, or have a small chance to get a token from the daughter each time you catch a rarer fish. If you mine rarer nodes and mining minigame rank you do have a small percentage to also give out otak tokens. Father tokens could be acquired by doing bounties that require killing a lot of mobs like the defense bounties  or the vault runs (since you get the necramech snake from him on the story) but the mother tokens could be the default token you can get them only from bounties. Or add other tokens to the reward pools of bounties. since grandmother tokens are hard to get why not add them to the SP bounty chart (extra 20 mother tokens is not even worth doing the steel path bounties because the rewards (you can easily get them in other bounties for half the trouble) suck and you have to bring "full gear", not to mention it almost takes double the amount of time to complete it due to enemy scaling.

 

I wanna hear more people talking about this to see if at least i can make any sense of all this. 

Edited by Zefat
grammar, or at least try xD
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I liked a lot the token system and after tweaks on economy of those tokens, it should be added to every open world, since you aren't tied to the daily cap directly and can still farm rep even if you are on 0 standing remaining for the day. The endless missions are a very welcome change, I really wish you can add it to PoE and OV too.

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One thing I don`t like is the amount of void traces you need to rank up necroloid syndicate, all together you need 750 void traces that`s way to much especially when you get between 6 - 30 VT, either reduce it to 15, 25 ,50 at each rank or replace it with something else. Also you need to raise the amount you can get from void fissures to 20 - 50 secondly make the be more options to get them also make VT be offered as rewards not a pickup but an actual reward like when it use to be on POE bounties.

And the amount of animals you need to collect just to get tokens from son is to much and grindy.

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Do bounties to earn tokens.

Trade resources for different tokens.

Go fishing and trade fish guts for even different tokens.

Capture wildlife to trade for differenter tokens.

Mine other resources to trade for other tokens from the different tokens you traded different resources for.

Convert all tokens into better tokens and rank up, except spend a ton for some weird glass shard too, oh and you need all those different tokens too so go farm a ton more of each of them so that you have enough for all the materials, BPs, pets, and other junk to go along with all those better tokens.

 

The token system wouldn't be that bad if I didn't need all the types of tokens to do each little thing.  The grind for Seriglass shards, and the need for so much of the Son tokens really annoy me the most.

 

Deimos is the best free roam area, I enjoy the missions the most of the 3, conserving isnt horrible, and fishing is good.  But the overcomplicated token crap and the seriglass shards frustrate me enough that I don't want to put the effort in on Deimos most of the time.

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I like the token system because it lets us gather "leveling tokens" so we can work today to level up another day in the future. I also like that the game forces players to do all the mundane tasks like fishing, mining, and hunting.

The task that many players hate is hunting (conservation). There could be some tweaks to making the task easier such as selecting a specific lure to highlight the dungs of the creature the player wants to capture. 

 

Edited by (PS4)AccursedImmortal
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I hate hunting with passion am not a big fan of hunting. And while on Earth and Venus it's very optional (erm... is there a hunting on Earth at all?), on Deimos it's a must, and that's bad. You can't gild new pets without Son's tokens (60 in total) and you can't get those tokens without hunting. I don't mind to go hunt every now and then for a few critters (Nora asks for that quite often) to get the pets in first place, but spending several days doing nothing else is totally not fun.

Well, if somebody does love hunting - they're definitely in heaven with that... but not me. Being forcefully put into this "joy" is very, very depressing.

On the other hand, the token system - I do like it! Extremely so! Being able to collect some tokens ahead of time and then just spend them to raise standing up to daily limit is just wonderful!

To sum things up - overall score is real good!

And there's few simple ways to fix new pets gilding: 1) change the cost to Grandma's tokens (even same 60 will be MUCH more comfortable for me than Son's); 2) give Grandma some Son's tokens to be bought for other tokens; 3) gild with standing as all other factions do (seriously, why Son is such an exceptional will-not-say-aloud-who-he-is-after-that?)

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well, the idea of the token system isn't totally bad since you can farm them in advance and just spend them on days when you don't have the time for 3 or more bounties (btw, the amount of token per mission is good but maybe you should made this more coherent, visual in the bounty screen and in comparrison to one another).

the bad parts are the randomeness of what we can exchange, the little amount we could if we actually have tons of exchange stuff, the un-equal worth-2-efford of some token compared to others. especially son tokens in regard how bugged the hunting is still out there (you really have it with flying creatures, don't you?) but grandmother is even worse since there you have to spend a rediculous amount of tokens from all other family members just to get one lausy shard... and we need several to those...

in terms of 'economy', it would be ok if you fix the problems with fishing and hunting, both of them are bugged and bad executed in regard to the places where you have to do them. e.g. fishing in some of the cave hotspots is impossible even with a bait when no fish ever will come at all... also the mutated spear should be able to hit the damn fish even if it's below the slime/water/whatever - as long as it is iluminated, let the special spear for it hit the fish (if one actually right on target, ofc).  as for hunting, like i mentioned above, you screwed up (again) with the little flyer which you need the lure for - 3 times out of 4 tries, the point where i have to call the little bugger is so close to a wall/boil/...stuff... or even inside a cave, that the little thing is glitching into the wall or roof, making it impossible to either hit collect (if the tranq miraculously did hit it).

beside that, the other animals are ok to hunt (even a bit easy for the ones that don't need lures) but the whole system could need more hunting spots - and a way for us to remove the bugged starting points too, for there are at least 2 of them that are screwed by the bad waypoint system  of the map and those are almost active every time i go out hunting...

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Requires to capture five, Common Avichaea makes me headache, and it was the main reason why I stopped to go Necraloid. Forced to capture the animals to rank up? Just for acquire rank 2? Are you really lost your mind? Are you really think that it is a sane idea? I don't get it.

Although all 'open world' exclusive jobs required to rank up their appripriate syndicates(fishing, mining and capture) are just sucks, but the capture is the worst one. Worse still, Avichaea is very hard to actually capture, even with the lures. I did captures some after buy a lure, but it was hard to actually learn how to capture it by myself. Then, you need five of them. Not only once, but five? Ha, what the hell is it? It was very unpleasant, but I have endured just because Helminth was a captive for them. No more, and there is no merit to endure the pain to return to there again either. Maybe I am unsure I will go there again even after most problems are solved. It already makes me disgusting, and I don't want to remind the bad experience again.

 

Also, the entrance of the city is not intuitive on the map at all. On the early days, I have failed to get to the entrance before the time is up and all the members are summoned after clear the bounty and gathered on the entrance most times.

 

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Son, daughter and otak need to be removed from all things progression. It takes too many caps to get son tokens and you get too little tokens for what you bring. The fortuna system was more fair because it took into account a lot of us hate conservation it’s not warframe. Same with daughter and fishing. In cetus and in fortuna you only want to do as much as you have to for what you want. Please remove them from progression and let them be stand alone as far as their rewards and rep not tokens. For father and mother I don’t like it but it’s more balanced more in line of do as much as you want for what you want. In fortuna I would do two really rare caps max my standing call it a day with that crap. Mining and fishing I can only stand as far as it’s needed to build my rewards not progress. Please nerf son requirements and like I said remove these 3 from progression. Busy work isn’t fun and making it tedious and convoluted just enrages people. 

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Requiring any Son Tokens, let alone TEN, to gild is complete garbage. 

To make it worse the ability to gain those tokens is an RNG nightmare. There's like 15 subspecies, and you need multiple types of tags of varying quantities to get one of the randomly generated available tokens.

You need to remove the token cost of gilding, but if nothing else at least simplify the ability to get those tokens. Don't make a token require more than one subspecies, and have most subspecies available for token trade in each rotation. It's baffling that conservation in a fast paced horde shooter is mandatory now, so if I decide to focus on only capturing Velocipods for tokens that should be a reasonably viable option. 

Don't pretend you don't have literal years of negative feedback on your increasing layers of RNG you've been adding to the game. I can clearly remember it as far back as the Plains of Eidolon release, and I'm sure others have examples older than that.

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The good:

Tokens allow stockpiling

Setting/family/rewards/etc are great.

 

The bad:

Conservation encourages me to not engage with the system (hunting) and farm random spawns instead, because hunting is so broken and frustrating on deimos, especially with birds.

There's no real balance to difficulty of acquisition to amount of rep gained, which is to say, no way to do something harder to get more rep.

You'd think conservation, fishing, and mining would count there, but it doesn't, since the rep gain from those activities was basically deleted compared to fortuna.

Random prices for tokens is not appreciated, and feels hostile.

Random prices for deals is just insulting.

The UI for tokens, if we're supposed to be buying them so much, is tedious and annoying. Multiselct and highlight/sort affordable need to work at least. If random amounts are to be kept, a "value" indicator should be shown instead of having to look over each one individually.

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Two weeks later.

This launch gets an F from me. Token costs are absurdly high, the only meaningful dent in rep you can make is by farming mother tokens and trading Ganglia to Father. Fishing is so buggy and random, and even with Oxylus equipped, hot spots sometimes just don't spawn fish unless you spam bait. Avichea tags are needed to progress, but they just seem to not spawn half of the time. Mining is actually all right, but Otak's token requirements are just absurdly high.

There's an easy fix, and you're not going to like it. Remove the Daughter, Son, and Otak tokens, and just leave them to Mother and Father. I understand the intention was to give us a way to farm rep actively and save up a stockpile, but there is a clear optimal path to doing this rep grind, and with how painfully slow some of the bounties are (Latrox, what samples are you even looking for?), I can only really stomach one or two bounties before I just give up. The fact that additional players just extend the bounties without actually making them any more challenging is kind of a slap in the face. Every bounty is "get X items/kills at Y location, then hold position for Z minutes." They're honestly really boring and unimaginative.

I haven't touched Necraloid standing at all yet. I can't muster the care to do vaults when the multiplayer framerates never hit 20. The only reasonable way to play this on Switch, currently, is to solo everything.

There are no rewards for maxing out your standing. I don't care about the story, and even if I did, I have YouTube and subscribe to multiple creators. I don't use captura because what's the point of making screenshots on a version of Warframe that can't even reliably output to 720p? (PS, dynamic scaling goes a little overboard and the Switch onscreen keyboard is a nightmare, not that you can do anything about that.) I don't decorate my orbiter. Fortuna gives me access to the best kitguns and their Arcanes at max level. Ostron gives me access to Arcanes for zaws. These were in the game at launch. I understand wanting to meet deadlines, but we literally started the year off with an unfinished, hurried release of Empyrean (where my command intrinsics at?!), a rebalancing which led to literally one status type being by far the best type (who thought +~400% incoming damage was a good idea?), an event that was sadly kneecapped by a plague (Scott mentioned Scarlet Spear was supposed to have two more phases originally, hopefully we get to see them in the rerun of the event), a "hard" mode that is almost entirely pointless unless you really need kuva and stance forma, and now we can see that things are slowly starting to appear on the horizon. As with everything in this patch, this is a really good launching point. But I think launching this was a good ways off from where it actually dropped. Once I got the Helminth segment, my drive to continue really dropped off, and once I got Hata-Satya (which is only okay anyway), I haven't touched it since. Maybe when infested kitguns are implemented, sure. But for now, it's on the back burner.

And so help me if the Mausolon gets nerfed before I get a chance to play with it. For the love of gawd, please make arch-guns actually worth using.

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I propose to make the ability Energized Munitions costs energy per second, 
cause it looks useless with crap duration and waiting to be pressed over and over again. 
Hata-Satya would look good with this, but now this bundle is playable only in Simulacrum.
Next suggestion: do all Entrati mods (for prime weapons) for exilus slot.

 
Edited by xxgrxx
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My only issues besides the bugs is the Son’s tokens. Too much is required for so little to gain. For example, the animals can take while to hunt down and you need 10 tokens to guild which can be a problem if there is no guarantee you’ll have the right tags and amount to trade.

My only suggestions is for one reduce the number of different tags per tokens to 1. And make it where you can trade more common animals for 1 tag, 2 for uncommon, 3 for rare, and 4-5 y’all can do the 2 different tags. But having like 30-40 common tags but can not trade for tokens cause I don’t have enough uncommon or rare tags to trade beside them is annoying. Especially with so many requiring those tags. Hate feeling like I’m wasting time.

Also animals be popping up with no warning and get killed accidentally. Be nice if they can somehow stand out from the enemies. Like a unique mark on the map or something. 

You need 60 total tags plus 30,000 total standing to guild all 6 pets. That’s honestly too much. Be nicer if y’all at least reduced the token amount needed to guild at least by half.

Do those things and the son would be much more tolerable. Especially when there’s a lot of other things to be grinding for too besides son tokens as others have already mentioned.  

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this is the worst update ever  ... Naming (grandmother, daughter ....) why ?!?!

 the color palette is terrible ! 

No challenges, another nod to novice players,

stupid challenges (which are missing) ..

copy paste earlier (open worlds) mechanics and the idea has not changed

 

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